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 Post subject: The race to put electric cars into showrooms begins
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:15 pm 
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Mitsubishi to sell electric cars by next summer
Nissan, Renault pushing for 2011; BMW testing electric Mini
Canwest News Service, Reuters
Published: Wednesday, July 09, 2008

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Mitsubishi Motors Corp. will start selling its i MiEV plug-in electric vehicle to retail customers next summer, a year ahead of schedule, news sources said Wednesday, just as Nissan and Renault sign a pact to have mass-market electric cars on the road by 2011 and BMW explores an electric Mini.

The car is to be equipped with an advanced lithium ion battery, rechargeable from standard household outlets, and will be able to travel around 160km without a recharge. Mitsubishi Motors hopes to sell 2,000 i MiEVs in the first year and to boost the figure to 10,000 units by fiscal 2011.

Production is to begin as early as April.

Mitsubishi had initially planned to start leasing the minicar-based vehicle to businesses and municipalities next summer and to wait until 2010 for the retail launch. But it moved up the retail release in light of smoother-than-expected preparations for mass production and the favorable sales conditions created by runaway gasoline prices, Dow Jones reported.


The move comes as Portugal signed a deal with French carmaker Renault and its Japanese partner Nissan on Wednesday to boost the use of electric cars by creating a national recharging network. And BMW also said it was developing an electric Mini.

BMW said Field tests with the electric Minis will be used over the next 12-18 months to refine the technology, with details published towards the end of the year, BMW said on Wednesday.

"This step will allow the BMW Group to gain an initial knowledge of how mobility can be achieved efficiently using purely electrically powered vehicles," Chief Executive Norbert Reithofer said in a statement.


The plan aims to make Portugal one of the first countries to offer consumers the possibility of nationwide charging stations, boosting electric cars at a time of soaring gasoline prices.

The viability of the network could be helped by Portugal's relatively small size.

Renault and Nissan separately have similar agreements with Israel and Denmark but the deal with Portugal is the first to directly include both automakers.

Prime Minister Jose Socrates said the move was aimed at reducing reliance on oil in Portugal which imports all its fossil fuel needs. Import costs of oil have nearly doubled this year.

"We are living through an intense petrol shock, which affects the lives of everybody," Socrates said during a ceremony to announce the plan.

"We are not going to stand still like in the first and second oil shocks. We want to increase the country's energy independence."

Carlos Ghosn, president and chief executive of Nissan and Renault, said the partnership with Portugal could be a landmark for the development of a viable model for the adoption of electric cars.

"Portugal is the first country to start a direct partnership with the alliance (Renault and Nissan), creating a joint public-private model for zero-emission vehicles to become a credible alternative," he said.

Under the agreement, the government and the automakers will study the best way to make electric cars attractive for consumers and start viability studies on a nationwide network of charging stations.

The carmakers have agreed to mass market their electric cars in Portugal from 2011, making it one of the first to receive unique all-electric vehicles from Nissan and Renault.

Socrates, who has championed alternative energy such as wind power, said the key was to ensure consumers do not pay more for electric cars than petrol cars.

"On the day that a city has cars that have no emissions and no noise we will never turn back," Socrates said.

Carlos Tavares, vice-president of Nissan, said electric cars will have better or the same performance as petrol vehicles and the total cost will be the same with government incentives.

He said electric cars with a range of 160 km would meet the daily driving needs of 90 percent of drivers.

Nissan and Renault have said they also want to mass market electric cars in the United States in 2011/12. Car manufacturers that are seeing lower sales due to the surging oil price are rushing to offer cheaper alternatives to consumers.

General Motors Corp., which saw its shares drop to a 54-year low last week due to the slumping U.S. car market, is rushing to finish the production version of its Chevy Volt electric car.

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 Post subject: Re: The race to put electric cars into showrooms begins
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:22 pm 
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After becoming so cynical on ethanol, I'm feeling more and more like electric cars are the only way out of the fueling mess.


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 Post subject: Re: The race to put electric cars into showrooms begins
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:36 pm 
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I don't see ethanol doing a whole hell of alot except increasing the food shortage worldwide and raising the price of grain.

This car would be perferct for the inner city dweller who just goes to work and back everyday, which, in my city, is a great percentage.

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 Post subject: Re: The race to put electric cars into showrooms begins
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 7:39 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
After becoming so cynical on ethanol, I'm feeling more and more like electric cars are the only way out of the fueling mess.
Aren't electric cars part of the solution only in places where there are green sources of electricity?

From my understanding these cars will only be effective regionally.


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 Post subject: Re: The race to put electric cars into showrooms begins
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:03 pm 
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Ya'll know where most of that electricity comes from to charge that car right?

Not the solution...

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 Post subject: Re: The race to put electric cars into showrooms begins
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:04 pm 
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p911gt10c wrote:
I don't see ethanol doing a whole hell of alot except increasing the food shortage worldwide and raising the price of grain.

This car would be perferct for the inner city dweller who just goes to work and back everyday, which, in my city, is a great percentage.


It would be perfect for me. I pretty much only use my car to drive around Austin. I don't think I've taken it more than 20 miles in months.

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 Post subject: Re: The race to put electric cars into showrooms begins
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:06 pm 
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electricity comes out of the little plugin on the wall, guys. :roll:

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 Post subject: Re: The race to put electric cars into showrooms begins
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:08 pm 
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Is it a requirement that any non-gasoline car look completely and utterly retarded?

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 Post subject: Re: The race to put electric cars into showrooms begins
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:08 pm 
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LittleWing wrote:
Ya'll know where most of that electricity comes from to charge that car right?

Not the solution...


It is the solution if the source of the electricity is green.
Green energy is continuing to grow all over, seeing as everyone's being raped when it comes to oil.

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Last edited by p911gt10c on Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The race to put electric cars into showrooms begins
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:09 pm 
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aprilfifth wrote:
Is it a requirement that any non-gasoline car look completely and utterly retarded?


Aside from the rims, I don't mind the design really.

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 Post subject: Re: The race to put electric cars into showrooms begins
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 8:49 pm 
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aprilfifth wrote:
Is it a requirement that any non-gasoline car look completely and utterly retarded?


It kind of appears that way to me, thus far. I do not see this trend of "small and unusual-appearing" vehicles lasting too long, however. Eventually if this sort of idea is to become mainstream, it will have to adapt a more mainstream appearance.

Also, this is fine for the city dweller in warm climates, with well-maintained roadways and a short commute. These types of vehicles tend to lose their luster in more typical cities where potholes abound, snow and ice occupy a large part of the year, and commutes are anything but short.

I have to question as well their narrow focus on a very small part of the population that would buy such a vehicle (the young and trendy warm-climate commuter). A far smarter approach would be to focus on the masses, and their needs. This would not only include commuter cars, but also larger, more durable, and weather-resistant vehicles, and extend to farm equipment, semi trucks, and construction vehicles. Find a way to improve efficiency in those areas, and you may find yourself incredibly successful.


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 Post subject: Re: The race to put electric cars into showrooms begins
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:06 pm 
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I like the idea of electric cars, but not if it only goes roughly 100 miles. I mean, that'd be great for the average workday, but you'd essentially be buying this car soley to get to and from work, and to drive within town. What happens when I wanna drive somewhere an hour away? The car is worthless, unless I wanna pullover, find a free outlet and wait hours for it to recharge.

They should wait to release these vehicles until it they've been designed to accomodate real life. A New Haven to New York City drive isn't even possible with this. Then again, it is a good start.

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 Post subject: Re: The race to put electric cars into showrooms begins
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:09 pm 
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if every car had its own green energy source that you would have to buy such as a solar panel, this might work.

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 Post subject: Re: The race to put electric cars into showrooms begins
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:12 pm 
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tyler wrote:
Aren't electric cars part of the solution only in places where there are green sources of electricity?

From my understanding these cars will only be effective regionally.

LittleWing wrote:
Ya'll know where most of that electricity comes from to charge that car right?

Not the solution...

I used to be more worried about this as well, but then I read that electric motors are around three times more efficient than their internal combustion cousins, which would make sense considering all the heat and noise gas engines produce. Plus, you'd get the benefit of transferring any air pollution out of the city streets and leave it to be generated away from where people live.

I am still thinking though that if a massive switch to electric vehicles does happen, that one certain source of electricity will have to be pursued even further...


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 Post subject: Re: The race to put electric cars into showrooms begins
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:14 pm 
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Sandler wrote:
I like the idea of electric cars, but not if it only goes roughly 100 miles. I mean, that'd be great for the average workday, but you'd essentially be buying this car soley to get to and from work, and to drive within town. What happens when I wanna drive somewhere an hour away? The car is worthless, unless I wanna pullover, find a free outlet and wait hours for it to recharge.

Yeah, I noted that and I agree with you, I'd buy something like a scooter for usage like that. But you gotta start somewhere.


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 Post subject: Re: The race to put electric cars into showrooms begins
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:24 pm 
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Sandler wrote:
I like the idea of electric cars, but not if it only goes roughly 100 miles. I mean, that'd be great for the average workday, but you'd essentially be buying this car soley to get to and from work, and to drive within town. What happens when I wanna drive somewhere an hour away? The car is worthless, unless I wanna pullover, find a free outlet and wait hours for it to recharge.

They should wait to release these vehicles until it they've been designed to accomodate real life. A New Haven to New York City drive isn't even possible with this. Then again, it is a good start.


Bare in mind, the 160km range is from the Mitsubishi model. The Nissan/Renault and BMW groups will undoubtedly try to beat this range with their models.

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 Post subject: Re: The race to put electric cars into showrooms begins
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:37 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
tyler wrote:
Aren't electric cars part of the solution only in places where there are green sources of electricity?

From my understanding these cars will only be effective regionally.

LittleWing wrote:
Ya'll know where most of that electricity comes from to charge that car right?

Not the solution...

I used to be more worried about this as well, but then I read that electric motors are around three times more efficient than their internal combustion cousins, which would make sense considering all the heat and noise gas engines produce. Plus, you'd get the benefit of transferring any air pollution out of the city streets and leave it to be generated away from where people live.

I am still thinking though that if a massive switch to electric vehicles does happen, that one certain source of electricity will have to be pursued even further...
Remember when the brown outs were rolling across California. Now imagine bigger, more frequent brown outs.

While the car may be efficient in it's use of electricity the grid to get the electricity to the outlet is not efficient at all. There is a horrible loss of energy in the transmission of electricity. Then add to this equation any inefficiencies in the coal fired and gas fired generatin stations. Has anyone done the science to show that the electric car is better or worse than a gas car in areas that rely on coal fired electricity generation? The lack of life cycle science when touting the enviro friendliness of products is astonishing. When marketing and politics meet science the science some how gets forgotten.


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 Post subject: Re: The race to put electric cars into showrooms begins
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:38 pm 
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It is the solution if the source of the electricity is green.
Green energy is continuing to grow all over, seeing as everyone's being raped when it comes to oil. - p911


It is if the source of electricity is green. But by and large, the source of the electricity isn't green... Green energy may be growing all over, but I would fathom a guess that oil is going up right along with it. And who cares about oil when you can have coal electricity way cheaper than that. But that's neither here nor there I suppose.

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if every car had its own green energy source that you would have to buy such as a solar panel, this might work. - No Idea because the new board is so awesome


Yup. Keep dreaming. Even if solar panels were 100% efficient, they still couldn't power a car.

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I used to be more worried about this as well, but then I read that electric motors are around three times more efficient than their internal combustion cousins, which would make sense considering all the heat and noise gas engines produce. Plus, you'd get the benefit of transferring any air pollution out of the city streets and leave it to be generated away from where people live. - GreenHabit


Yeah, and it's also more efficient to transfer energy via powerlines than trucks. Gas takes energy to refine. And power plants are more efficient than automobile engines. Still though, when you talk about the solutions that most greenies are after, this is NOT the solution they are looking for.

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 Post subject: Re: The race to put electric cars into showrooms begins
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 9:41 pm 
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While the car may be efficient in it's use of electricity the grid to get the electricity to the outlet is not efficient at all. There is a horrible loss of energy in the transmission of electricity. Then add to this equation any inefficiencies in the coal fired and gas fired generatin stations. Has anyone done the science to show that the electric car is better or worse than a gas car in areas that rely on coal fired electricity generation? The lack of life cycle science when touting the enviro friendliness of products is astonishing. When marketing and politics meet science the science some how gets forgotten. - Tyler


No exactly true. The electric grid is about 95% efficient at transferring electric from the power plant to your house. That's hardly a horrible loss when comparing it to 25%-30% efficiency in your internal combustion engine. Or the 25% efficiency of the diesel engine transporting gas to the pump. And like I said, power plant generators are more efficient than automobile engines too.

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 Post subject: Re: The race to put electric cars into showrooms begins
PostPosted: Thu Jul 10, 2008 10:41 pm 
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All this high-level talk about energy efficiency is great and all, but for the Average Joe, a break from the money sucking gas pump will be a major improvement.

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