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 Post subject: Re: The Israel/West Bank Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 7:44 pm 
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Age of information just posted this. It's good.

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 Post subject: Re: The Israel/West Bank Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 8:56 pm 
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dimejinky99 wrote:
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Also why do you show a map of only the 60 years since this goes back 100s if not 1000s of years?

I'm no expert, I jut assumed that's when the US/British invented the state of Israel to give the Jews somewhere to be after the war? And secure a foothold for the oil supply in the middle east?
[/quote]

One common belief is that the US give military aid to the Saudi royals and others on the peninsula to 'secure' an oil supply. I don't know enough to judge that thought.

dimejinky99 wrote:
You guys stateside obviously have a pro Israeli stance but are any of your media outlets being objective about it? Or is it Palestine are terrorists end of story?


Well, it's hard to say. If we are only ever exposed to bias, how do we know? :?

Israel is favored in the US for many reasons, one of them being that they are only pluralist democracy in the area. We also tend to disregard the "proportional" response idea. Deadly force is deadly force and if rockets were raining down on any European city like they do on Tel Aviv, you bet your side of the pond would not be concerned with the proportionality of the response, they would be concerned with ending the threat.

Now in this particular situation, Israel appears to be the instigator, which is not OK.

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 Post subject: Re: The Israel/West Bank Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:28 pm 
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broken iris wrote:
dimejinky99 wrote:
You guys stateside obviously have a pro Israeli stance but are any of your media outlets being objective about it? Or is it Palestine are terrorists end of story?


Well, it's hard to say. If we are only ever exposed to bias, how do we know? :?

Israel is favored in the US for many reasons, one of them being that they are only pluralist democracy in the area. We also tend to disregard the "proportional" response idea. Deadly force is deadly force and if rockets were raining down on any European city like they do on Tel Aviv, you bet your side of the pond would not be concerned with the proportionality of the response, they would be concerned with ending the threat.

Now in this particular situation, Israel appears to be the instigator, which is not OK.


There is still a lot of racial or cultural dislike for anything Middle Eastern among quite a few people in this country, and Israel obviously gets a pass on that. Then there's the whole Holy Land thing...

Basically, it's hard to imagine how utterly shitty Israel would have to get before US opinion would go against them in a conflict involving another Middle Eastern country.


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 Post subject: Re: The Israel/West Bank Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 9:42 pm 
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broken iris wrote:
Israel is favored in the US for many reasons, one of them being that they are only pluralist democracy in the area.


AL'ed

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 Post subject: Re: The Israel/West Bank Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 10:03 pm 
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The part I don't really understand is that if any other nation was being blockaded for food/fuel etc for so long Like Palestine was, and they started to attack and be then battered by the blockading nation, the US would probably wade in all guns blazing. I know it isn't as cut and dry as that by Israeli treatment of these people has been despotic and horrific for decades, and yet nobody seems to care or want to get involved. Isthis finally coming to a head? An Israeli senator was being challenged on UK news tonight about an article he'd writted, stating that Palestine and everyone in it should be leveled completely and used Hiroshima as an example. Ridiculously extreme but that's the level feelings are at. Its getting very riled up and given slanted views by a lot of US media according to some Indy sources. Just wondered how you guys were seeing it?

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 Post subject: Re: The Israel/West Bank Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:52 pm 
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dimejinky99 wrote:
The part I don't really understand is that if any other nation was being blockaded for food/fuel etc for so long Like Palestine was, and they started to attack and be then battered by the blockading nation, the US would probably wade in all guns blazing. I know it isn't as cut and dry as that by Israeli treatment of these people has been despotic and horrific for decades, and yet nobody seems to care or want to get involved.


Israel has nuclear weapons. What threats would work against them?

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 Post subject: Re: The Israel/West Bank Thread
PostPosted: Mon Nov 19, 2012 11:54 pm 
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dime, there's never actually going to be a point where the United States isn't full r-word when it comes to making sense or moralizing our stance in regards to ANYthing Middle East. Plus adopting Israel as our ugly, poops on the carpet, wet-snout mutt allows us the same freedom the phrase "urban voter" does....the chance to be kind of racist from time to time without actually having to feel like we're being racist.

It's not worth trying to make sense of.


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 Post subject: Re: The Israel/West Bank Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:23 am 
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McParadigm wrote:
dime, there's never actually going to be a point where the United States isn't full r-word when it comes to making sense or moralizing our stance in regards to ANYthing Middle East. Plus adopting Israel as our ugly, poops on the carpet, wet-snout mutt allows us the same freedom the phrase "urban voter" does....the chance to be kind of racist from time to time without actually having to feel like we're being racist.

It's not worth trying to make sense of.


WTH are talking about?

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 Post subject: Re: The Israel/West Bank Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:46 am 
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broken iris wrote:
McParadigm wrote:
dime, there's never actually going to be a point where the United States isn't full r-word when it comes to making sense or moralizing our stance in regards to ANYthing Middle East. Plus adopting Israel as our ugly, poops on the carpet, wet-snout mutt allows us the same freedom the phrase "urban voter" does....the chance to be kind of racist from time to time without actually having to feel like we're being racist.

It's not worth trying to make sense of.


WTH are talking about?


Look at this racist.


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 Post subject: Re: The Israel/West Bank Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:57 am 
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No, I'm being a wise-ass, but not without a bit of regional accuracy.

I live here....

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 Post subject: Re: The Israel/West Bank Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:00 am 
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 Post subject: Re: The Israel/West Bank Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 12:31 pm 
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McParadigm wrote:
No, I'm being a wise-ass, but not without a bit of regional accuracy.

I live here....

Image


Just curious: what's the thought about those states being grouped together? I remember studying in history about "the Great Plains" which the image url seems to suggest. But is that relevant to today's political mindset? MN & IA are even blue states, right?


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 Post subject: Re: The Israel/West Bank Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 2:56 pm 
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The thing about the Plains is that, if you break it down, it's pretty much just all red with these annoying little weirdo blue spots pockmarking some areas. Those blue spots aren't illness. They're called "cities." The people in these "cities" and the people in the small towns might as well be living in separate states. They maintain a very healthy level of scorn for one another. In Nebraska, the discord is heavy enough that Omaha gets its own electoral vote, totally separate from the state. The rest of Nebraska is not tickled ("fuckin' Obamaha"). Minnesota is no different...the lower expanses are filled with tiny towns and farmers that are simple, god fearing, gay bashing, hang out by the gas station and get drunk on a Saturday night people. But the Minn/St Paul metro area is home to practically half the state, so it goes blue.

Iowa's rural population is a little different...a little more politically open, you could say...but their life experience is a also different. Every storm that comes through the country starts to fart out around the Plains states. Kansas, Nebraska, South Dakota...these are dry fucking places, sucking up aquifer water to get by. Farmers see the clouds come over, but they just get a splattering of rain and a bunch of dry tornadoes. As the system staggers past the Kansas/Nebraska line, it sucks up water from the Missouri and pelts Iowa with it. Fucking crops actually grow there, and it shows. If you ever have to drive through Iowa and Nebraska, just pay attention to the quality of the roads. Holy shit.

The future of the Plains is a real mystery to me...there has always been a disproportionate number of really miserable manufacturing jobs in the dry states, and that's grown a bit in the last decade. When I went into South Dakota to get my stepson after his accident a few years back, it blew me away. While the official census is that the state is 87% white, almost every town that has a plant of some sort in it (read: all of them) had literally doubled in size since I'd last been there. And it was all Latino. When a town like Watertown, which has actually been shrinking for years, suddenly explodes and is full of Mexican restaurants and non-English storefronts, you check the map to see if you took a wrong turn. It's totally surreal...all these towns have doubled in size, the census implies almost no population growth, and nobody acknowledges the disconnect because its helping all the local stores and businesses.

But what would a place like South Dakota look like, politically, if suddenly there were 150,000 voting Latinos hanging out there?


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 Post subject: Re: The Israel/West Bank Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 3:47 pm 
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dimejinky99 wrote:
Age of information just posted this. It's good.


Thx for that....I'll forget it all in a week but for the moment I really learned something.


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 Post subject: Re: The Israel/West Bank Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 4:31 pm 
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cease fire

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 Post subject: Re: The Israel/West Bank Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 6:12 pm 
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dkfan9 wrote:
cease fire


Boring.

We cannot let that happen or people might start thinking about the fiscal cliff again. We need a new sex scandal now! Bill and Hillary make Debbie Whatshername-sucks dress up as Chelsea! Kim is pregnant with Yeazy's baby! Anything but the reality of our choices!

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 Post subject: Re: The Israel/West Bank Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 7:06 pm 
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broken iris wrote:
dkfan9 wrote:
cease fire


Boring.

We cannot let that happen or people might start thinking about the fiscal cliff again. We need a new sex scandal now! Bill and Hillary make Debbie Whatshername-sucks dress up as Chelsea! Kim is pregnant with Yeazy's baby! Anything but the reality of our choices!


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 Post subject: Re: The Israel/West Bank Thread
PostPosted: Tue Nov 20, 2012 8:17 pm 
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yeezy*

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 Post subject: Re: The Israel/West Bank Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 3:46 pm 
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dimejinky99 wrote:
Quote:
Also why do you show a map of only the 60 years since this goes back 100s if not 1000s of years?

I'm no expert, I jut assumed that's when the US/Bitish invented the state of Israel to give the Jews somewhere to be after the war? And secure a foothold for the oil supply in the middle east?

You guys stateside obviously have a pro Israeli stance but are any of your media outlets being objective about it? Or is it Palestine are terrorists end of story?


I spent a semester in grad school doing an Israeli/Palesinian conflict resolution as a Palestinian - so I completely understand their concerns and it was a very difficult bargaining position. I'm not on either side, I was just curious why you're so one-sided and don't approach this with more than simple propaganda.


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 Post subject: Re: The Israel/West Bank Thread
PostPosted: Wed Nov 21, 2012 5:51 pm 
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Oh I'm not at all, just shocked a the way it's being spun the way it is. Which is hugely pro Israeli in some cases. That's all.

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