Take it one step further:

The Palestinians are not "aiming" for military targets.

to attribute all of israel's economic advantage to their own efforts is to ignore the fact that we give them a good amount of their weaponry and give them far more funding than we provide to Palestinian areas

US Aid
06 numbers:
Israel- 2.5 Bil
West Bank/Gaza- 150 mil

that can't have any effect on economic disparities can it?

on a side note, we gave Egypt 1.7 Bil that same year.

So much for the argument that we're supporting countries with western values and freedoms.

not to mention the seizure of palestinian lands by israelis and the israeli settlements in palestinian territories in general.

friends. 2.5b is TINY. this is not what is making israel powerful.

i'm fine with the argument that the U.S. should stop supporting israel (i think it's crazy but i'm fine with it). however, if you think this money is dramatically altering israel's defense spending, etc., you are wrong. it's a drop in the bucket.

if you don't believe me i will demonstrate how small 2.5b is by showing you how much each of the following is:

a day's cost in iraq
the INTEREST on the united states debt
Israel's annual budget

drop in the bucket. irrelevant.

Damn straight.

That was the beginning of the end for Arafat. If I remember correctly, even he admitted later down the track that he would have taken the deal if it was offered to him again.



With Hamas democratically elected but rendered politically impotent by the cutting of foreign aid almost immediately, there was no prospect of achieving anything viable in the long term. My recollection of the Gaza withdrawal appears to be very different from yours. I was opposed to it then, and I'm opposed to it now. It should have come as part of a negotiated agreement, where both parties felt they gained something out of it. I remember it as being a vulgar and humiliating experience for all involved. Israelis booted out of their homes and Palestinians left without any social structures.



Again, we must remember this episode of the Israel/Palestine question very differently. I remember feeling a kind of relief at the news that Sharon was incapable of continuing in his position. (Incidentally, the guy's still in a coma, right? I don't remember there ever having been a funeral for him). Sharon certainly had the clout to bring the right into line, but he never had the will to treat the fundamental Palestinian cause as a legitimate one and consequently, never had the ability to achieve anything lasting.

How I wish Rabin had lived on.

And how, dear genius, do you propose they do that? Via their satellites? Their intelligence bureau?

How anyone can view what's going on right now as a justifiable response is absolutely beyond me. What makes it worse for the palestinians is that no one cares...egypt won't even let them flee the bombing. That's the sad history of the palestinian people, that not only has Israel hit them, but arabic countries which should be rising to their side just stand and watch. I'm watching commercials on TV right now for tourism in beautiful Israel...sickening, they'll never get a dime of my money.

Is anybody else just completely fucking over this whole Arab-Israeli thing? Make peace or destroy each other...I couldn't fucking care less anymore.

It's gone on long enough, that's for sure. It's pretty obvious who would win an all out war, provided no other countries get involved. And I think that's why the international community has expressed a desire to see Israel restrain itself.

Yeah, just like Africa, amiright? So boring, right?

You should be concerned about this whole Arab-Israeli "thing", because not only does it involve many lives, but your government is smack dab in the middle of things. And if there is one thing we should increasingly realize, it is that the roles we play in other parts of the world do impact us.

At some point people need to solve their own fucking problems amongst themselves. Africa is a different story IMO.

But that's my point, it's not just amongst themselves! The US is heavily involved in this scenario, as is Iran. If you are saying that the USA should stop giving $$$ and weaponry to Israel, and let them fight it out themselves, then yes, I agree with you. But I doubt that's what you mean...you can't say they should fight it out themselves on one hand and say the US should always and forever align and support Israel on the other.

The Terrorist in some of all of us


Let's say that Pearl jam decided to help the non "terrorist" palestinian people by playing a concert in Gaza. Let's say that some of us went because we follow those money grubbers(lately) anywhere. Let's say that the Zionist air strike the show killing ed , olivia , boom, that person who is always told to turn on the lights and a couple of us .... how many of us would ...

I don't know why I was thinking that this morning but this whole "mortar fire" crap from faceless people is bunk and convenient with an election approaching in the zionist theocratic state

This thread is kinda funny. Probably a good thing I wasn't here when it started, I could have wasted a lot of time debating this stuff.

First of all, if PJ did a concert in Gaza I would think they were rather foolish. I certainly wouldn't follow them there.

Explain to me how you arrived at the idea that the government of Israel is, in simple terms, a "zionist theocracy?"

Well, they could always... you know... stop firing the rockets.



Israel has said it's goal here is to remove the cancer known as Hamas and return Gaza to the Palestinian Authority. It that's true, I don't have much of a problem with that approach. Hamas broke the ceasefire. Hamas fires rockets from residetnial areas, intentionally endangering innocents by drawing Israeli fire into neighborhoods. Hamas murders politicians who support a peaceful settlement with Israel and has done since they conquered Gaza 18 months ago. Hamas is also a proxy fighter for Iran, who are racing towards a nuclear bomb that is aimed right at Israel. It's in the world's best interest that Hamas be obliterated.

There is no reason for the other Islamic nations in the ME to help the Palestinians other than provide arms and some cash. If they do, and Palestine improves it's living conditions, then they lose the trump card they hold with their own oppressed populations; the ability to blame Israel for all the problems in the region. Hell, the Arab league agreed decades ago not to grant Palestinians citizneship in other nations so they could 'retain their right to return to their homeland', in other words, so they don't actually have to assume responsibility to help them. Could you imagine the outrage if the US suddenly said that no one from Haiti, even if they and their parents were born in the US, can be a citizen? There is one nation in the ME that does grant Palestinians citizenship. I'll let you guess which one that is.

And they can then join the United Arab List and work with fellow polits, within the republic, to bring about the establishment of a Palestinian state.

because it is a state based on a religion
what do you think a theocracy is?

That is what I mean. I know it will never happen, but if I were in charge, it would.