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 Post subject: Intent vs. Actions and Altruism
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:54 am 
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What's more important, someone's intent or their actions?

When I was younger, I always believed "it's the thought that counts." As I've gotten older, it seems like actions are much more important than someone's intent. Let me give you an example:

Does it matter why someone decides to donate money to charity, as long as the money gets donated? Does it matter why someone volunteers to read to children, as long as the kids have someone to read to them? What if the person is only going because there is a cute girl and he wants to get laid. He doesn't care at all about the children, but he still reads to them and treats them well every time he shows up. Is he any better than the person who doesn't go at all?

I am the belief that there are no altruistic deeds. Everything we do is done for selfish reasons. This sounds much more cynical than it really is. When someone does a good deed, they do it because it makes them feel good. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Should we care why someone does something or should we just judge them by the effect it has on others?

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 Post subject: Re: Intent vs. Actions and Altruism
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 3:56 am 
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In general, I go by intent. Certain situations require action, though.

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 Post subject: Re: Intent vs. Actions and Altruism
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:13 am 
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Sunny wrote:
In general, I go by intent. Certain situations require action, though.


Without an example, that pretty much answered nothing I asked.

But thanks :)

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 Post subject: Re: Intent vs. Actions and Altruism
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:19 am 
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given2trade wrote:
Does it matter why someone decides to donate money to charity, as long as the money gets donated?

Yes
given2trade wrote:
Does it matter why someone volunteers to read to children, as long as the kids have someone to read to them?

Yes
given2trade wrote:
What if the person is only going because there is a cute girl and he wants to get laid. He doesn't care at all about the children, but he still reads to them and treats them well every time he shows up. Is he any better than the person who doesn't go at all?

Yes
given2trade wrote:
Should we care why someone does something or should we just judge them by the effect it has on others?

Intent has integrity.

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 Post subject: Re: Intent vs. Actions and Altruism
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:42 am 
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Well as someone who does something altruistic because he wants to, I think intent is important. If my little brother calls me out of the blue on a Saturday night or whatever, I'll take the call because I actually care about this kid. Someone who is doing it for another reason might not, and little things like that build trust. We would have a totally different relationship if it was court-ordered or something like that. So I think it makes a big difference. That said, with things like donating, there is much less of a difference. Resources are resources, and I'm sure most charities are fine with people making donations to use as tax write-offs.

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 Post subject: Re: Intent vs. Actions and Altruism
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:45 am 
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Orpheus wrote:
Well as someone who does something altruistic because he wants to, I think intent is important. If my little brother calls me out of the blue on a Saturday night or whatever, I'll take the call because I actually care about this kid. Someone who is doing it for another reason might not, and little things like that build trust. We would have a totally different relationship if it was court-ordered or something like that. So I think it makes a big difference. That said, with things like donating, there is much less of a difference. Resources are resources, and I'm sure most charities are fine with people making donations to use as tax write-offs.


But, if the court ordered you to spend time with him, and you showed him the same affection as you do now...would it make a difference?

Why do you spend time with your little brother? Doesn't it make you feel good? Isn't that selfish?

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 Post subject: Re: Intent vs. Actions and Altruism
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:48 am 
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I get a lot out of it, yes, and that's one of the reasons that I do it. But I stand by what I said. It definitely matters in personal relationships more so than just ones involving donations and stuff like that. I'd wager we are much closer than the average match and that has a lot to do with the fact that it was totally my choice.

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 Post subject: Re: Intent vs. Actions and Altruism
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 4:54 am 
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Orpheus wrote:
I get a lot out of it, yes, and that's one of the reasons that I do it. But I stand by what I said. It definitely matters in personal relationships more so than just ones involving donations and stuff like that. I'd wager we are much closer than the average match and that has a lot to do with the fact that it was totally my choice.


OK, so you are giving a specific example that involves spending time with other human beings, for charity. You're saying that if you are there because you want to be there you are more likely to do a better job than if you are there for alternative reasons. I agree.

The one thing I will disagree with is this: You only do it BECAUSE you get something out of it. You do it 100% because of YOU not because of your little bro. It's the same reason why we do ANYTHING. Why we stay in marriages, have friends, etc. It's always, 100%, for US. It might be because we feel guilt about ending the relationship or because we feel guilt about how fortunate we are vs. others in the world but every action we do is because of our own feelings. EVERYTHING WE DO IS SELFISH. LOOKING AFTER OUR OWN IS ALWAYS OUR INTENT.

On another note...I don't really care why the guy down the street doesn't rob me. As long as he doesn't rob me. Does it make a difference why?

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 Post subject: Re: Intent vs. Actions and Altruism
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:35 am 
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Sorry, but I disagree. You and thodoks can say that a million times but I still do it in part to help him out and to make him happy. We can get into whether that is reflexive and him being happy makes me happy and all that til we're blue in the face.

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 Post subject: Re: Intent vs. Actions and Altruism
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:37 am 
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Orpheus wrote:
I disagree


FTFY

Clearly you didn't graduate from the Lysander school of posting.


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 Post subject: Re: Intent vs. Actions and Altruism
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 6:39 am 
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The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

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 Post subject: Re: Intent vs. Actions and Altruism
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 7:52 am 
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it depends what i'm looking at

in judging a person's character, yes, i do care, as subjectively i have standards and morals that i can apply to actions and motivations in order to deem them good/virtuous, dispicable, or anywhere in between(including those that i feel have no inherent value good or bad all else equal), but in what's good for society or others even, i think intentions play less of a role.

objectively, i can't say anything is good or bad at all, although it can become more definitive when aiming for a certain goal(such as what is the better action for alleviating homelessness, what is the better action for bringing democracy to middle eastern countries, for ending starvation, for promoting equality of opportunity, etc), although there are still differing ideas on these issues of course.

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 Post subject: Re: Intent vs. Actions and Altruism
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 9:05 am 
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Humpossible.

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 Post subject: Re: Intent vs. Actions and Altruism
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 10:21 am 
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Do courts order people to become big brothers? That sounds like a sitcom setup more than a punishment.

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 Post subject: Re: Intent vs. Actions and Altruism
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 12:35 pm 
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bart d. wrote:
Do courts order people to become big brothers? That sounds like a sitcom setup more than a punishment.


lol @

Regarding the rest of your posts, I will reiterate that when I was your ages - intent was much more important than actions to me. I guess as I've gotten older I just care how things EFFECT me - not so much why they end up that why.

Of course I would rather date a girl whose intent is of "a more positive" nature.

Nate - saying you don't agree with thodo and I about being acting in their own self interests is the exact same thing as dkfan not agreeing with probability. It's a simple fact that everything we do - we do for ourselves. This might really piss you off but it's true.

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 Post subject: Re: Intent vs. Actions and Altruism
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:12 pm 
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given2trade wrote:
I am the belief that there are no altruistic deeds. Everything we do is done for selfish reasons. This sounds much more cynical than it really is. When someone does a good deed, they do it because it makes them feel good. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this. Should we care why someone does something or should we just judge them by the effect it has on others?

I also believe that actions are more important than intent.

But I don't be believe that there are no altruistic deeds. I have no doubt that those who are working for NGOs in Darfur do it because it makes them feel good about themselves, but many of those people such as the doctors from Médecins Sans Frontières are working unselfishly for the benefit of others. I've had aquaintances contract illnesses in the course of this work, and two colleagues who died. They knew the risks, and probably felt better about themselves for doing this work. It doesn't matter whether they were egotists who felt Godlike in their power to save the disadvantaged, they were still doing something that provided greater gain to those they were helping than to themselves. Isn't that the definition of altruism?


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 Post subject: Re: Intent vs. Actions and Altruism
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:17 pm 
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Orpheus wrote:
Sorry, but I disagree. You and thodoks can say that a million times but I still do it in part to help him out and to make him happy. We can get into whether that is reflexive and him being happy makes me happy and all that til we're blue in the face.

let me explain my position.

given the information and incentives confronting them, people will always act to further their self-interests and maximize their welfare. their interests may not be overtly "selfish" and more grounded in altruistic ideals. that is, they may be more interested in somehow improving the lives of others, or making sure that stray and abandoned animals find good homes, or making sure their neighborhood isn't strewn with trash and refuse, or whatever. attempting to further an altruistic interest - like nate's committment to his little brother or my mother's insistence on adopting racing greyhounds - is still self-interested behavior. i think people recoil at being labeled "self-interested" because somehow self-interest has become synonomous with "greed" or "selfishness." nate (or sunny, or anyone), see if you agree with the following illustration.

my mom loves animals and adopts racing greyhounds (she has adopted four). prior to adopting each one, she faced a choice: do i adopt this greyhound, or don't i, knowing full well that my failure to adopt it may inevitably result in it being euthanized? because she is a genuinely caring person whose interests include altruistic pursuits, allowing the dog to be put down would have caused for her a certain amount of guilt and anguish. there's no way she could have lived with herself if she hadn't adopteded it. but avoiding pain and minimizing negative welfare is still self-interested behavior. she minimized the amount of negative feelings that not adopting the dog would have produced by going ahead and adopting the dog, which, given the circumstances, was the option that maximized her welfare.

i can understand that analyzing "altruistic" behavior in such stark and emotionless terms may be off-putting. but understand that when i try to explain that being a big brother is self-interested behavior i'm not trying to impugn your character or minimize the impact you're having in your little brother's life. i'm not accusing you of having less than pure motives. in fact, it's just the opposite. but because the notion of altruism is so romanticized and idealized, and there is a reluctance to to scrutinize the logic of "altruism," we've become averse to the notion that every decision we make, given the information and incentives we face, is an exercise in maximizing utility and furthering our respective interests.

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 Post subject: Re: Intent vs. Actions and Altruism
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:20 pm 
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there's a Friends episode (The One Where Phoebe Hates PBS) where Joe proves to Phoebe there is no selfless action.


:mrgreen:

a good action is enhanced by a good intention and diminished by a bad one (most of all for the one making it), but it's not worthless to the person receiving it.

otoh a bad action is not made better by having good intentions behind it.

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 Post subject: Re: Intent vs. Actions and Altruism
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:24 pm 
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Great post thodo.

Here is something else to chew on:

Doesn't EVERYONE think their intent is good? I know some pretty horrible people and the way they get by every day is they justify all their actions. I'm not sure anyone does something thinking they don't have good intent, even raping or murdering someone. So in the end, shouldn't we judge them by objective, societal, actions?

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 Post subject: Re: Intent vs. Actions and Altruism
PostPosted: Thu Apr 02, 2009 1:27 pm 
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Quote:
a good action is enhanced by a good intention and diminished by a bad one (most of all for the one making it), but it's not worthless to the person receiving it.

otoh a bad action is not made better by having good intentions behind it.


That's a good way to say it. I guess the question is how much is it enhanced/diminished? I think most of the positive is the action. There rest is marginal.

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