Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:30 pm
Of Counsel
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:14 am Posts: 37778 Location: OmaGOD!!! Gender: Male
mastaflatch wrote:
defend your right to own guns all you want, i don't care all that much. but don't make people who choose not to own a gun look like they're the ones having a problem, mmkay?
Nobody's doing that. We're pointing out the logical deficiencies in the thought process that goes "Guns are bad, we should get rid of them."
_________________ Unfortunately, at the Dawning of the Age of Aquarius, the Flower Children jerked off and went back to sleep.
Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:55 pm
Supersonic
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:43 am Posts: 10694
Quote:
I'd probably be LESS inclined to use a gun if the intruder had a gun because if a burglar has a gun, he's probably prepared to use it and the last thing I'd want in my home would be a shootout. - PD
This is a poor attitude. Get some training with your guns if this is how you feel. I for one, have little doubt that if anybody entered my home that there would be no shoot out. Regardless of whether they had a gun or not. Three bullets would travel one direction. End of story. Just get some more training. Learn some tactics. Become proficient with your weapon. And have a plan for what you'd actually do if the situation arose.
If you are properly trained on how to handle the situation, then you're going to be more prepared than 95% of burglars for an exchange of fire. Furthermore, you know the lay of the land and the layout of your house better. You know ambush points. You know where the lights are. You know what to do.
Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 5:13 pm
statistically insignificant
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:19 pm Posts: 25134
mastaflatch wrote:
defend your right to own guns all you want, i don't care all that much. but don't make people who choose not to own a gun look like they're the ones having a problem, mmkay?
that wasn't my point. like broken_iris said, gun ownership is a personal decision. i certainly respect your decision to not own a gun, and i wouldn't by force of government edict mandate that you do. but i would expect the same courtesy. that is, you should respect my decision to own a gun, even if you disagree with it. and people who choose not to own guns shouldn't by force of government edict mandate that i also not own one.
my problem is not with non-gun owners. it's with non-gun owners who, through the political process, seek to forcibly remove the option of anyone else owning a gun.
Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 5:28 pm
Former PJ Drummer
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:51 am Posts: 17078 Location: TX
thodoks wrote:
tryinmorning wrote:
An alternate explanation of why people may not have directly answered that question, is perhaps they find it rather silly.
this.
as it is, i find this whole "i hate that, and don't understand why, people want guns...so let's ban them" line of reasoning to be incredibly juvenile. don't misunderstand; i enjoy debating an issue with someone who disagrees with my position. but employing such deficient reasoning makes me suspect that reasoned and informed debate will NEVER convince some of the posters in this thread who have so far appeared neither interested nor able to debate on such a level.
Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:00 pm
Winner: 2007+2009 Other Bands Cover Contest
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:50 pm Posts: 2792
Electromatic wrote:
badabing wrote:
I prefer to protect my family by stabbing or beating the intruder. You don't have to worry about your kid finding your baseball bat and accidently bludgening himself.
If you are fast enough to be awoken by a sound and in the dark find the key....get the gun box, open it, grab the gun(let's say it is already loaded) and get yourself in position to fire the gun and you know not be mistaken and shoot a family member who was getting a drink from the fridge than yes a key would work.
Electromatic wrote:
Yeah that worked out exceptionally well for Sean Taylor.
They busted through his bedroom door and shot him....I guess he could have done a roll and fired back Lethal Weapon style....
Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:08 pm
Reissued
Joined: Sun Oct 24, 2004 3:38 pm Posts: 20059 Gender: Male
tryinmorning wrote:
I think whatever happens to a burglar happens. They brought that upon themselves when they broke into a house. I don't feel any sympathy. Also, there are a ton of what ifs for everything you do in life. I think that is a rather silly question.
i agree with this wholeheartedly.
_________________ stop light plays its part, so I would say you've got a part
Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:11 pm
Former PJ Drummer
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:51 am Posts: 17078 Location: TX
LittleWing wrote:
Quote:
I'd probably be LESS inclined to use a gun if the intruder had a gun because if a burglar has a gun, he's probably prepared to use it and the last thing I'd want in my home would be a shootout. - PD
This is a poor attitude. Get some training with your guns if this is how you feel. I for one, have little doubt that if anybody entered my home that there would be no shoot out. Regardless of whether they had a gun or not. Three bullets would travel one direction. End of story. Just get some more training. Learn some tactics. Become proficient with your weapon. And have a plan for what you'd actually do if the situation arose.
If you are properly trained on how to handle the situation, then you're going to be more prepared than 95% of burglars for an exchange of fire. Furthermore, you know the lay of the land and the layout of your house better. You know ambush points. You know where the lights are. You know what to do.
Yeah, just be more like LW, who is a veritable fucking commando.
Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:17 pm
Administrator
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:51 pm Posts: 14534 Location: Mesa,AZ
badabing wrote:
If you are fast enough to be awoken by a sound and in the dark find the key....get the gun box, open it, grab the gun(let's say it is already loaded) and get yourself in position to fire the gun and you know not be mistaken and shoot a family member who was getting a drink from the fridge than yes a key would work.
Obviously it was oversimplification, but the point is, with proper measures, you can greatly reduce the chances of an accident to near nil. You don't even have to lock up the gun; just keep it unloaded, keep the clip on your person, and teach the kids that there will absolutely be hell to pay if they mess with the gun (and take them shooting just to show them how dangerous it really is, and get all the curiosity out of their system). I'd bet if you look up the statistics, most of the people whose children were involved in gun accidents were irresponsible idiots who thought it'd be cool to have a loaded firearm in their drawer.
_________________
John Adams wrote:
In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress.
Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:34 pm
Winner: 2007+2009 Other Bands Cover Contest
Joined: Mon Feb 13, 2006 4:50 pm Posts: 2792
$úñ_DëV|L wrote:
badabing wrote:
If you are fast enough to be awoken by a sound and in the dark find the key....get the gun box, open it, grab the gun(let's say it is already loaded) and get yourself in position to fire the gun and you know not be mistaken and shoot a family member who was getting a drink from the fridge than yes a key would work.
Obviously it was oversimplification, but the point is, with proper measures, you can greatly reduce the chances of an accident to near nil. You don't even have to lock up the gun; just keep it unloaded, keep the clip on your person, and teach the kids that there will absolutely be hell to pay if they mess with the gun (and take them shooting just to show them how dangerous it really is, and get all the curiosity out of their system). I'd bet if you look up the statistics, most of the people whose children were involved in gun accidents were irresponsible idiots who thought it'd be cool to have a loaded firearm in their drawer.
Agreed....I can just envision a number of scenerios where you won't have time to get to a gun if it is properly locked up.
I guess you would have to compare the stats of someone fending off and intruder with a gun or exchanging gun fire with an burgler versus accidental gun deaths and make your desicion based on that. Personally I don't know anyone who got into a gun battle with buglers.
Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:38 pm
Got Some
Joined: Tue Jul 19, 2005 12:17 pm Posts: 1313 Location: still here
punkdavid wrote:
enimmi wrote:
From this thread I gather that most of you own a weapon to defend your family and loved ones.
The reasoning here is quite deficient.
You're right. I should have phrased it as 'I gather that most of you believe in the right to defend your family and loved ones in whatever way possible, even if it means killing an intruder.'
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I was wondering when you would you use a gun? Would it be against an intruder regardless if he/she had a gun or would you only use one if the intruder had one as well?
When defending one's home and family, you use whatever defenses you have at your disposal. Period. The weaponry of the intruder is irrelevant, and in fact, I'd probably be LESS inclined to use a gun if the intruder had a gun because if a burglar has a gun, he's probably prepared to use it and the last thing I'd want in my home would be a shootout.
Usually burglars try to escape when they are discovered, not attack someone. Only a fucked up person would break into a house with the idea of hurting someone. But it could be this is something that happens a lot in the US.
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And what if you would shoot and the bullet would ricochet and kill your wife or kid? Would you still think it was a good idea to have a gun?
Not very likely. Much more likely is that a kid gets a hold of the gun on a normal day and hurts himself or someone else with it. That is why I don't, and likely never will, own a gun.
So you think owning a gun is more of a risk than not owning one?
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And speaking about the right to defend yourself; is it o.k. for Iran or North Korea to own a nuclear weapon in order to defend itself? If not, why? And would you think the US has the right to own nuclear weapons? And what would be the difference?
When you're talking about a regime like Iran or North Korea, your metaphor would be more like saying, "Since homeowners and cops have guns, shouldn't the criminals have the right to have guns to defend themselves?" Sure, the Iranians don't see it that way, but really now, who do you trust more to be the "cops" in this scenario, the US and UK or Iran? It's much like the guns in America question. The nukes are out there, you can't uninvent them, so you need to just do your best to keep them out of the hands of the untrustworthy.
But how do you decide who is untrustworthy and who isn't? If anyone in the US has a right to own a gun, you create the possibility that those guns will be used for other ways than to defend yourself. The examples are numerous. Are you willing to take that chance?
Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 6:52 pm
Got Some
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:47 pm Posts: 2932
I've never owned a gun, and don't plan to, however... ...in America, at this time, we are forced to deal with certain realities:
*puts on crazed right-winger hat
The ultimate effect of a gun ban in America would be that, primarily, two groups of people would have guns: Criminals, and the government. Neither group deserves such a privilege, in my estimation.
*takes off crazed right-winger hat
Also, for those of you who are unfamiliar with all of the nooks and crannys of American culture, a gun ban would almost certainly cause armed insurrection.
_________________ For your sake I hope heaven and hell are really there but I wouldn't hold my breath
Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:06 pm
Of Counsel
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:14 am Posts: 37778 Location: OmaGOD!!! Gender: Male
Buffalohed wrote:
LittleWing wrote:
Quote:
I'd probably be LESS inclined to use a gun if the intruder had a gun because if a burglar has a gun, he's probably prepared to use it and the last thing I'd want in my home would be a shootout. - PD
This is a poor attitude. Get some training with your guns if this is how you feel. I for one, have little doubt that if anybody entered my home that there would be no shoot out. Regardless of whether they had a gun or not. Three bullets would travel one direction. End of story. Just get some more training. Learn some tactics. Become proficient with your weapon. And have a plan for what you'd actually do if the situation arose.
If you are properly trained on how to handle the situation, then you're going to be more prepared than 95% of burglars for an exchange of fire. Furthermore, you know the lay of the land and the layout of your house better. You know ambush points. You know where the lights are. You know what to do.
Yeah, just be more like LW, who is a veritable fucking commando.
_________________ Unfortunately, at the Dawning of the Age of Aquarius, the Flower Children jerked off and went back to sleep.
Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:08 pm
Of Counsel
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:14 am Posts: 37778 Location: OmaGOD!!! Gender: Male
enimmi wrote:
Quote:
Quote:
And what if you would shoot and the bullet would ricochet and kill your wife or kid? Would you still think it was a good idea to have a gun?
Not very likely. Much more likely is that a kid gets a hold of the gun on a normal day and hurts himself or someone else with it. That is why I don't, and likely never will, own a gun.
So you think owning a gun is more of a risk than not owning one?
That's what I said, isn't it?
Quote:
Quote:
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And speaking about the right to defend yourself; is it o.k. for Iran or North Korea to own a nuclear weapon in order to defend itself? If not, why? And would you think the US has the right to own nuclear weapons? And what would be the difference?
When you're talking about a regime like Iran or North Korea, your metaphor would be more like saying, "Since homeowners and cops have guns, shouldn't the criminals have the right to have guns to defend themselves?" Sure, the Iranians don't see it that way, but really now, who do you trust more to be the "cops" in this scenario, the US and UK or Iran? It's much like the guns in America question. The nukes are out there, you can't uninvent them, so you need to just do your best to keep them out of the hands of the untrustworthy.
But how do you decide who is untrustworthy and who isn't? If anyone in the US has a right to own a gun, you create the possibility that those guns will be used for other ways than to defend yourself. The examples are numerous. Are you willing to take that chance?
The alternative is to give the government the monopoly on the use of force, and that is what I think most Americans object to. That's why our ancestors left Europe.
_________________ Unfortunately, at the Dawning of the Age of Aquarius, the Flower Children jerked off and went back to sleep.
Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 7:30 pm
Administrator
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:51 pm Posts: 14534 Location: Mesa,AZ
enimmi wrote:
But how do you decide who is untrustworthy and who isn't? If anyone in the US has a right to own a gun, you create the possibility that those guns will be used for other ways than to defend yourself. The examples are numerous. Are you willing to take that chance?
Let's look at our two choices:
a) We let everybody have a right to own a gun. Trustworthy and untrustworthy people have guns. b) We don't give anybody the right to own a gun. Now, someone who owns a gun is, by definition, untrustworthy.
_________________
John Adams wrote:
In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress.
Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 12:54 am
The Decider
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:38 am Posts: 5575 Location: Sydney, NSW
$úñ_DëV|L wrote:
Because it'd be impossible to get rid of them all?
You wouldn't use this argument for other ills that afflict society, but somehow the right to possess a gun is so sacrosanct and ingrained in the American psyche, that people are prepared to overlook the logical fallacy inherent in it.
$úñ_DëV|L wrote:
And because if someone wants to kills someone, they can easily find another way?
I used to believe this too until I had to confront the reality of this assumption as part of my work. This might be true of domestic murders where the murderer just loses it, but it isn't true of drive-bys and robberies. If guns weren't as readily available as they are right now, the number of deaths associated with gang violence and robberies would almost without doubt tumble.
LittleWing wrote:
Quote:
I'd probably be LESS inclined to use a gun if the intruder had a gun because if a burglar has a gun, he's probably prepared to use it and the last thing I'd want in my home would be a shootout. - PD
This is a poor attitude. Get some training with your guns if this is how you feel. I for one, have little doubt that if anybody entered my home that there would be no shoot out. Regardless of whether they had a gun or not. Three bullets would travel one direction. End of story. Just get some more training. Learn some tactics. Become proficient with your weapon. And have a plan for what you'd actually do if the situation arose.
If you are properly trained on how to handle the situation, then you're going to be more prepared than 95% of burglars for an exchange of fire. Furthermore, you know the lay of the land and the layout of your house better. You know ambush points. You know where the lights are. You know what to do.
Mate can I write a book about you?
_________________
Jammer91 wrote:
If Soundgarden is perfectly fine with playing together with Tad Doyle on vocals, why the fuck is he wasting his life promoting the single worst album of all time? Holy shit, he has to be the stupidest motherfucker on earth.
Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
Posted: Sat Apr 11, 2009 1:13 am
Administrator
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:51 pm Posts: 14534 Location: Mesa,AZ
shades-go-down wrote:
$úñ_DëV|L wrote:
Because it'd be impossible to get rid of them all?
You wouldn't use this argument for other ills that afflict society, but somehow the right to possess a gun is so sacrosanct and ingrained in the American psyche, that people are prepared to overlook the logical fallacy inherent in it.
Actually, I would (and do) use that argument for the other ills that afflict society.
Quote:
$úñ_DëV|L wrote:
And because if someone wants to kills someone, they can easily find another way?
I used to believe this too until I had to confront the reality of this assumption as part of my work. This might be true of domestic murders where the murderer just loses it, but it isn't true of drive-bys and robberies. If guns weren't as readily available as they are right now, the number of deaths associated with gang violence and robberies would almost without doubt tumble.
I've seen statistics that support both sides. But I would much rather address the causes of violent crime rather than its symptoms. I'm sure deaths might be lower, but as thodoks pointed out, I'm not sure violent crime incidence would decrease (and would likely increase).
_________________
John Adams wrote:
In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress.
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