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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:00 pm 
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I've never had a real strong opinion on this issue, but from my experience on this forum, this seems to be the one issue that has the biggest dissent between Americans and non-Americans.


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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:13 pm 
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When I was child, aka in college, I thought banning handguns was a good idea. I figured choking off the supply would reduce the number of gun related crimes. That was mostly because I didn't understand black-market supply and demand at the time.

Now that I have a wife, a home, and a young sister, I have come to learn that there are things worth defending and owning a gun a part of that. If someone were to break into my house, and the alarm didnt scare them off, they would die. If someone hurt my wife or my baby sister they would die. I make no apologies for that and I'm not going to try and convince others they should feel that way. Gun ownership is an individual's choice. It's my choice.

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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:17 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
I've never had a real strong opinion on this issue, but from my experience on this forum, this seems to be the one issue that has the biggest dissent between Americans and non-Americans.


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16. Which of the following best describes your attitude toward gun control? (Note: If you select “C”, you may also select “A” or “D” if you wish.
A. The government has no right to regulate guns or ammunition in any way, no matter how small a measure.
B. The government should outlaw gun ownership by a private citizen.
C. The government should introduce stronger measures that will make purchasing weapons more difficult, in addition to waiting periods and extensive background checks, etc.
D. I have no problem with some regulation, such as against assault weapons, but by and large, citizens have the right to bear arms.
On a scale of 1-5, how strongly do you feel about this issue?


Americans (3.69)
A. 17.8%
B. 2.2%
C. 35.6%
D. 44.4%

Non-Americans (3.50)
A.
B. 46.2%
C. 46.2%
D. 7.6%

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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:28 pm 
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Aprilfifth,

I'm not sure where the data comes from, but according to the GSS, which is frequently called racist and biased by lefties, just over 70% of responders support increasing restrictions on handguns in 'Merica.

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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:31 pm 
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Buffalohed wrote:
Could this thread be any more terrible?


Of course. Just imagine what it would be like if we all supported bannings guns.

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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:32 pm 
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broken iris wrote:
Aprilfifth,

I'm not sure where the data comes from, but according to the GSS, which is frequently called racist and biased by lefties, just over 70% of responders support increasing restrictions on handguns in 'Merica.

Sorry, that was from the survey of RMers maybe 6 months back.

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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:50 pm 
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broken iris wrote:
When I was child, aka in college, I thought banning handguns was a good idea. I figured choking off the supply would reduce the number of gun related crimes. That was mostly because I didn't understand black-market supply and demand at the time.

Now that I have a wife, a home, and a young sister, I have come to learn that there are things worth defending and owning a gun a part of that. If someone were to break into my house, and the alarm didnt scare them off, they would die. If someone hurt my wife or my baby sister they would die. I make no apologies for that and I'm not going to try and convince others they should feel that way. Gun ownership is an individual's choice. It's my choice.

good post. i used to feel similarly, and didn't think all that highly of gun owners in general, regardless of the reason they owned them. but once i started to analyze the issue a bit more thoughtfully, i realized that making handguns (or all guns) illegal will only make things much, much worse.

you mentioned the black market angle, which is a good way to look at it. but another way to look at is something economists call "the substitution effect." it's pretty straightforward: to the extent that one's demand for item X (or for behavior Y) is strong, he or she will continue to consume X (or engage in behavior Y). once it becomes too expensive (where "expense" is a function of time, money, opportunity cost, or some combo thereof) to consume X (or engage in behavior Y), the individual will substitute to the next closest approximation of item X or behavior Y. and to the extent that the substitute is a close approximation of the original item (or behavior), the individual will substitute that much quicker. so if kraft macaroni & cheese doubles in price, it is highly likely that a consumer will buy velveeta instead. if the price of coke increases by 20%, it is highly likely that an individual will buy pepsi or dr. pepper instead. if the cost of bowling increases enough, people will instead play pool or darts. substitution.

the same thing is true of guns. assuming regulating handguns effectively reduces the ease with which they can be acquired (which increases the amount of time and money that a criminal must commit to acquiring a gun), it becomes more attractive for the criminal to substitute away from guns and to another instrument that can be used effectively in illegal pursuits. so knives, box-cutters, etc become the criminals' instrument of choice. since regulation also curtails the ability of law-abiding citizens to acquire guns, they too no longer have access to the defense handguns provide. so instead of using a gun to make a large score - say, robbing a bank - criminals will instead pursue lower visibility, lower reward type ventures (think muggings, robbery, etc). because these smaller crimes necessarily produce smaller "hauls," if you will, criminals must commit these crimes more often if they want to maintain whatever lifestyle it is they enjoy. and because criminals, who by definition defy laws, have the advantage of knowing that law-abiding citizens are not likely to break the law and possess a gun, they benefit from having not just an increased number of targets, but an increased number of unarmed targets. banning guns makes society's most vulnerable exponentially more vulnerable. violent crime against women and the elderly increases exponentially in locales that ban guns.

banning guns may nominally reduce violent gun crime (and even that is debatable), but it has the effect of increasing the level of violent non-gun crime. the most vulnerable members of society - women, children, the elderly, etc - then become targets in lieu of other less vulnerable members or institutions (read: those most capable of defending themselves).

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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 2:56 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
I've never had a real strong opinion on this issue, but from my experience on this forum, this seems to be the one issue that has the biggest dissent between Americans and non-Americans.


Circumcision might be the only other rival in this respect.

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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:00 pm 
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punkdavid wrote:
aprilfifth wrote:
I think if we could push a magic button and there be no more guns on earth most people would say to push the button. But that's not the case. The practicality of outlawing guns is simply not there. And enforcement...well short of stripping people of all their basic civil liberties, enforcement would be impossible. And that's among law-abiding citizens. I'm thinking it would be even more unlikely to get criminals to part with their weapons, thus leaving the law-abiding citizen more unsafe than at the beginning of the process. I understand the emotions behind wanting guns outlawed, but the real world application is simply not there.

This, right here.


That's cool. Wonder what percentage of the population has guns? it's 250 million people in the US right?

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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:08 pm 
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I prefer to protect my family by stabbing or beating the intruder. You don't have to worry about your kid finding your baseball bat and accidently bludgening himself.


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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:12 pm 
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badabing wrote:
I prefer to protect my family by stabbing or beating the intruder. You don't have to worry about your kid finding your baseball bat and accidently bludgening himself.


Image

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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:19 pm 
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From this thread I gather that most of you own a weapon to defend your family and loved ones. I was wondering when you would you use a gun? Would it be against an intruder regardless if he/she had a gun or would you only use one if the intruder had one as well? And what if you would shoot and the bullet would ricochet and kill your wife or kid? Would you still think it was a good idea to have a gun?

And speaking about the right to defend yourself; is it o.k. for Iran or North Korea to own a nuclear weapon in order to defend itself? If not, why? And would you think the US has the right to own nuclear weapons? And what would be the difference?

Just curious to see what your anwsers would be.

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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:34 pm 
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I just got a shirt from conspiracyshirts.com that has a picture of an assault rifle with the text "know your rights, the future is unwritten". Kind of sums it all up for me.


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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:36 pm 
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enimmi wrote:
From this thread I gather that most of you own a weapon to defend your family and loved ones. I was wondering when you would you use a gun? Would it be against an intruder regardless if he/she had a gun or would you only use one if the intruder had one as well? And what if you would shoot and the bullet would ricochet and kill your wife or kid? Would you still think it was a good idea to have a gun?

And speaking about the right to defend yourself; is it o.k. for Iran or North Korea to own a nuclear weapon in order to defend itself? If not, why? And would you think the US has the right to own nuclear weapons? And what would be the difference?

Just curious to see what your anwsers would be.

I don't own a gun. Of course I support the right to own one though. But do you think that because people are in favor of the right, that they must exercise it themselves. There are plenty of people that support gay rights here, but not all of them are gay. Just because one is not using it personally does not mean one should not care about it.

I think whatever happens to a burglar happens. They brought that upon themselves when they broke into a house. I don't feel any sympathy. Also, there are a ton of what ifs for everything you do in life. I think that is a rather silly question.

I don't think Iran and North Korea getting nuclear weapons is much of an equivalent situation. And what do you mean by o.k. For them or for us? I'm not really in favor of those countries getting nuclear weapons. Why? I'm in support of background checks and keeping weapons out of the hands of the batshit insane.


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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:38 pm 
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enimmi wrote:
From this thread I gather that most of you own a weapon to defend your family and loved ones. I was wondering when you would you use a gun? Would it be against an intruder regardless if he/she had a gun or would you only use one if the intruder had one as well? And what if you would shoot and the bullet would ricochet and kill your wife or kid? Would you still think it was a good idea to have a gun?

i can only speak for myself here, but if someone intrudes into my home, i'm not taking the time to find out if he has a gun. i'm arming and defending myself, my fiance, and my property. i of course would prefer not to have to fire the weapon, that the mere fact that i am willing to brandish the weapon would be enough of a deterrent for the intruder to peace out. if the intruder didn't leave though, i wouldn't hesitate to use my weapon.

enimmi wrote:
And speaking about the right to defend yourself; is it o.k. for Iran or North Korea to own a nuclear weapon in order to defend itself? If not, why? And would you think the US has the right to own nuclear weapons? And what would be the difference?

this question is above my pay grade.

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Last edited by thodoks on Mon Nov 30, 2009 4:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 3:44 pm 
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Nuclear proliferation is scary no matter who's doing it, but the US M.A.D. policiy is scarier still. Think the British have this policy too. We can't even get pepper-spray here, though the Police(our street level police force are unarmed) have just been issued with tazer guns.

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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:04 pm 
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badabing wrote:
I prefer to protect my family by stabbing or beating the intruder. You don't have to worry about your kid finding your baseball bat and accidently bludgening himself.


Yeah that worked out exceptionally well for Sean Taylor.

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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:16 pm 
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i've only read one article on this so far, but apparently the merchant ship that was hijacked was unarmed. international maritime law makes in unlawful for the ship and/or crewmembers to carry weapons. the "weapon" that they DO have? water cannons.

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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:25 pm 
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defend your right to own guns all you want, i don't care all that much. but don't make people who choose not to own a gun look like they're the ones having a problem, mmkay? :shake:

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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Fri Apr 10, 2009 4:29 pm 
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enimmi wrote:
From this thread I gather that most of you own a weapon to defend your family and loved ones.

The reasoning here is quite deficient.

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I was wondering when you would you use a gun? Would it be against an intruder regardless if he/she had a gun or would you only use one if the intruder had one as well?

When defending one's home and family, you use whatever defenses you have at your disposal. Period. The weaponry of the intruder is irrelevant, and in fact, I'd probably be LESS inclined to use a gun if the intruder had a gun because if a burglar has a gun, he's probably prepared to use it and the last thing I'd want in my home would be a shootout.

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And what if you would shoot and the bullet would ricochet and kill your wife or kid? Would you still think it was a good idea to have a gun?

Not very likely. Much more likely is that a kid gets a hold of the gun on a normal day and hurts himself or someone else with it. That is why I don't, and likely never will, own a gun.

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And speaking about the right to defend yourself; is it o.k. for Iran or North Korea to own a nuclear weapon in order to defend itself? If not, why? And would you think the US has the right to own nuclear weapons? And what would be the difference?

When you're talking about a regime like Iran or North Korea, your metaphor would be more like saying, "Since homeowners and cops have guns, shouldn't the criminals have the right to have guns to defend themselves?" Sure, the Iranians don't see it that way, but really now, who do you trust more to be the "cops" in this scenario, the US and UK or Iran? It's much like the guns in America question. The nukes are out there, you can't uninvent them, so you need to just do your best to keep them out of the hands of the untrustworthy.

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