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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:12 am 
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LittleWing wrote:
You never hear about the people who are saved, and you're never told whether arms are legally owned in crimes or not.


Really? I feel like the story about the teacher who hid her students in closets and then took a bullet herself has been one of the biggest sub-stories of the Sandy Hook disaster, not to mention the other teacher who led her class into a bathroom stall and locked the door, demanding the police slide their badges under the door to prove that they weren't the shooter. There were multiple stories of men taking bullets for their wives and girlfriends in the Aurora, CO shooting. And with both this and the Aurora shooting, I feel like how the shooter obtained the weapons was widely circulated information. Maybe I'm just inadvertently stumbling across the few good articles.

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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:17 am 
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LittleWing wrote:
I don't think there would be much change in terms of crazy people murdering their mothers and shooting up classrooms full of children, they'll either find guns, or pursue other means, but I'd bet you anything that you'd see an explosion in gang violence, and an explosion in crimes everywhere such as robbery, home invasion, and rape.

I'm not particularly convinced.

Just pulling this straight out of 62strat's post on the previous page:

62strat wrote:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2012/12/16/gun_control_after_connecticut_shooting_could_australia_s_laws_provide_a.html

What happened next has been the subject of several academic studies. Violent crime and gun-related deaths did not come to an end in Australia, of course. But as the Washington Post’s Wonkblog pointed out in August, homicides by firearm plunged 59 percent between 1995 and 2006, with no corresponding increase in non-firearm-related homicides. The drop in suicides by gun was even steeper: 65 percent. Studies found a close correlation between the sharp declines and the gun buybacks. Robberies involving a firearm also dropped significantly. Meanwhile, home invasions did not increase, contrary to fears that firearm ownership is needed to deter such crimes. But here’s the most stunning statistic. In the decade before the Port Arthur massacre, there had been 11 mass shootings in the country. There hasn’t been a single one in Australia since.


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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:33 pm 
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Spike wrote:
LittleWing wrote:
Spike wrote:
LittleWing wrote:
62strat wrote:
Oh i get it. The lamestream media is out to get all the gun owners and their pistolas!


No, that's not it at all. The point is that when it comes to guns, rightfully or wrongly, purposefully or not purposefully, when it comes to guns there is one thing you hear about - the death toll.

You never hear about the people who are saved, and you're never told whether arms are legally owned in crimes or not. As a result a good portion of the country makes their decision on whether guns are bad or good based on assymetric information. If the only thing you ever about from guns is the death toll, but there's a whole 'nother realm of information out there to consider, how can you declare that you've made a rational judgment on the issue?

So you're suggesting there'd be even more of these mass shootings in the US if guns were banned?


Yes I do. I don't think there would be much change in terms of crazy people murdering their mothers and shooting up classrooms full of children, they'll either find guns, or pursue other means, but I'd bet you anything that you'd see an explosion in gang violence, and an explosion in crimes everywhere such as robbery, home invasion, and rape. I'm pretty sure that the last assault weapons ban had no statistical impact on crimes such as this.

If you ban guns every major metropolitan area will face the same disaster that Chicago and DC have endured. And you risk turning cities such as Albequeque, Los Angeles, and El Paso into quasi-war zones where the cartels will control everything and run roughshod over everybody else.

The drug war isn't going to end any time soon, and the demand from the same people for weapons won't either. No bans are going to stop it.

Wait, so armed citizens like yourself have been keeping the gangs and cartels mostly at bay all this time? Thanks cowboy, I had no idea!


Yes. Armed citizens prevent thousands of crimes in this country every year, you just never hear about them. When someone wants to commit a home invasion they have to take the risk that someone is armed and home. When both DC and Chicago instituted gun bans, gun crime soared while it went down in the rest of the country. In Florida violent crime dropped substantially after they made concealed carry and gun ownership easier and eased up on castle laws.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=j_YTM_eA ... 5W9Nqp1EeA

America isn't educated? Great. So educate and train. Why capitulate?

Talking about dead teachers blocking bullets and running kids into the bathroom? Are you serious? As opposed to a teacher, or the principal dropping the asshole before he killed the teacher hiding in the closet?

Mexico has extremely tight gun control laws, how's that working out? Venezuela? Guatemala? El Salvador? Brazil? Switzerland, on the other hand, essentially has compulsory assault rifle ownership for all military aged males. And the government supplies ammo. They have one of the lowest murder rates in the western world, if not the lowest. When the United Kingdom instituted their gun ban, they saw an enormous rise in robbery, and gun crime has doubled over the last ten years.

http://gunowners.org/sk0703.htm

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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:34 pm 
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spenno wrote:
LittleWing wrote:
I don't think there would be much change in terms of crazy people murdering their mothers and shooting up classrooms full of children, they'll either find guns, or pursue other means, but I'd bet you anything that you'd see an explosion in gang violence, and an explosion in crimes everywhere such as robbery, home invasion, and rape.

I'm not particularly convinced.

Just pulling this straight out of 62strat's post on the previous page:

62strat wrote:
http://www.slate.com/blogs/crime/2012/12/16/gun_control_after_connecticut_shooting_could_australia_s_laws_provide_a.html

What happened next has been the subject of several academic studies. Violent crime and gun-related deaths did not come to an end in Australia, of course. But as the Washington Post’s Wonkblog pointed out in August, homicides by firearm plunged 59 percent between 1995 and 2006, with no corresponding increase in non-firearm-related homicides. The drop in suicides by gun was even steeper: 65 percent. Studies found a close correlation between the sharp declines and the gun buybacks. Robberies involving a firearm also dropped significantly. Meanwhile, home invasions did not increase, contrary to fears that firearm ownership is needed to deter such crimes. But here’s the most stunning statistic. In the decade before the Port Arthur massacre, there had been 11 mass shootings in the country. There hasn’t been a single one in Australia since.


And as to this crap:

AUSTRALIA: MORE VIOLENT CRIME DESPITE GUN BAN

April 13, 2009



It is a common fantasy that gun bans make society safer. In 2002 -- five years after enacting its gun ban -- the Australian Bureau of Criminology acknowledged there is no correlation between gun control and the use of firearms in violent crime. In fact, the percent of murders committed with a firearm was the highest it had ever been in 2006 (16.3 percent), says the D.C. Examiner.

Even Australia's Bureau of Crime Statistics and Research acknowledges that the gun ban had no significant impact on the amount of gun-involved crime:
•In 2006, assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
•Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
•Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.

Moreover, Australia and the United States -- where no gun-ban exists -- both experienced similar decreases in murder rates:
•Between 1995 and 2007, Australia saw a 31.9 percent decrease; without a gun ban, America's rate dropped 31.7 percent.
•During the same time period, all other violent crime indices increased in Australia: assault rose 49.2 percent and robbery 6.2 percent.
•Sexual assault -- Australia's equivalent term for rape -- increased 29.9 percent.
•Overall, Australia's violent crime rate rose 42.2 percent.
•At the same time, U.S. violent crime decreased 31.8 percent: rape dropped 19.2 percent; robbery decreased 33.2 percent; aggravated assault dropped 32.2 percent.
•Australian women are now raped over three times as often as American women.

While this doesn't prove that more guns would impact crime rates, it does prove that gun control is a flawed policy. Furthermore, this highlights the most important point: gun banners promote failed policy regardless of the consequences to the people who must live with them, says the Examiner.

Source: Howard Nemerov, "Australia experiencing more violent crime despite gun ban," D.C. Examiner, April 8, 2009.

For text:

http://www.examiner.com/x-2879-Austin-G ... te-gun-ban

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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 12:57 pm 
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Kevin Davis wrote:
Really? I feel like the story about the teacher who hid her students in closets and then took a bullet herself has been one of the biggest sub-stories of the Sandy Hook disaster,


Not to be too cynical, but part of that was because she was young and attractive and that keeps people looking at the TV.

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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:09 pm 
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LittleWing wrote:
Mexico has extremely tight gun control laws, how's that working out?

Care to guess where the weapons come from?

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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:37 pm 
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LittleWing wrote:
Talking about dead teachers blocking bullets and running kids into the bathroom? Are you serious? As opposed to a teacher, or the principal dropping the asshole before he killed the teacher hiding in the closet.


What's your point? You said you never hear stories about lives that are saved, and never hear whether the weapons were obtained legally, both of which are blatantly false statements. Your response above seems to indicate that you just don't think those lives saved count for as much, simply because they weren't saved in your preferred gun-toting, vigilante fashion.

Unlike most gun skeptics, I don't immediately write off the arguments of the pro-gun faction--I'm not a gun person, and in turn will admit that there's a lot I don't know, and I consistently find myself educated by arguments from both sides. However, there's no way I can believe that "armed teachers = shooting spree stopped" isn't a gross oversimplification.

broken iris wrote:
Not to be too cynical, but part of that was because she was young and attractive and that keeps people looking at the TV.


Speculation, and still debunks the idea that you "never" hear these stories.

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Last edited by Kevin Davis on Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:56 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 1:57 pm 
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This link would suggest that in all shootings between 1963 and 2001, roughly 50% of guns were obtained legally.

http://www.vpc.org/studies/wguncont.htm


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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 2:20 pm 
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LittleWing wrote:
While this doesn't prove that more guns would impact crime rates, it does prove that gun control is a flawed policy.

Well, case closed.

Since vastly fewer Australians owned guns BEFORE gun control compared to the US, I'm reasonably certain any increases in things like sexual assaults or robbery don't have any particular relation to increased gun control. Whether 1972 or 2012, raping someone or breaking into their house has never meant being genuinely fearful someone's going to shoot you in Australia (in most circumstances).

I note the article you posted said nothing on this:

Quote:
In the decade before the Port Arthur massacre, there had been 11 mass shootings in the country. There hasn’t been a single one in Australia since.

Is it worth losing a right to own a gun for self-defence if it means lunatics find it almost impossible to obtain one? For me, absolutely - so, hey, good thing I live in Australia, I guess.


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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:28 pm 
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spenno wrote:
Is it worth losing a right to own a gun for self-defence if it means lunatics find it almost impossible to obtain one? For me, absolutely - so, hey, good thing I live in Australia, I guess.


It's really not that hard, at least not for much longer:

http://defensedistributed.com/

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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 3:29 pm 
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You know how doesnt use guns? Batman. batman saved Gotham.

/thread.


Spenno, was the dingo debacle handled prior to the gun ban? Would the outcome of the case differ if the family had an assault rifle on hand?


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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 5:50 pm 
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62strat wrote:
You know how doesnt use guns? Batman. batman saved Gotham.

/thread.




In fairness, catwoman did use a gun, which enabled batman to save gotham.

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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 18, 2012 6:48 pm 
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stip wrote:
62strat wrote:
You know how doesnt use guns? Batman. batman saved Gotham.

/thread.




In fairness, catwoman did use a gun, which enabled batman to save gotham.

THIS is the internet.


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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:03 am 
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http://jpfo.org/

i lol'ed

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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:04 am 
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I didn't know 62strat was Jewish!

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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:20 am 
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*Edit* found it:

http://pinkpistols.org/

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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 2:37 am 
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Some people have the strangest fetishes.

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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 3:49 am 
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Possible motive.


http://www.foxnews.com/us/2012/12/18/fe ... d%3D247519


NEWTOWN, Conn. – The gunman who slaughtered 20 children and six adults at a Connecticut elementary school may have snapped because his mother was planning to commit him to a psychiatric facility, according to a lifelong resident of the area who was familiar with the killer’s family and several of the victims’ families.

Adam Lanza, 20, targeted Sandy Hook Elementary School in Newtown after killing his mother early Friday because he believed she loved the school “more than she loved him,” said Joshua Flashman, 25, who grew up not far from where the shooting took place. Flashman, a U.S. Marine, is the son of a pastor at an area church where many of the victims' families worship.

“From what I've been told, Adam was aware of her petitioning the court for conservatorship and (her) plans to have him committed," Flashman told FoxNews.com. "Adam was apparently very upset about this. He thought she just wanted to send him away. From what I understand, he was really, really angry. I think this could have been it, what set him off.”

A senior law enforcement official involved in the investigation confirmed that Lanza's anger at his mother over plans for “his future mental health treatment” is being looked at as a possible motive for the deadly shooting.

Flashman was told Nancy Lanza had begun filing paperwork to get conservatorship over her troubled son, but that could not be confirmed because a court official told FoxNews.com such records are sealed. The move would have been necessary for her to gain the legal right to commit an adult to a hospital or psychiatric facility against his will. A competency hearing had not yet been held.

Adam Lanza attended the Sandy Hook School as a boy, according to Flashman, who said Nancy Lanza had volunteered there for several years. Two law enforcement sources said they believed Nancy Lanza had been volunteering with kindergartners at the school. Most of Lanza's victims were first graders sources believe Nancy Lanza may have worked with last year.

Flashman said Nancy Lanza was also good friends with the school’s principal and psychologist—both of whom were killed in the shooting rampage.

"Adam Lanza believed she cared more for the children than she did for him, and the reason he probably thought this [was the fact that] she was petitioning for conservatorship and wanted to have him committed," Flashman said. "I could understand how he might perceive that—that his mom loved him less than she loved the kids, loved the school. But she did love him. But he was a troubled kid and she probably just couldn’t take care of him by herself anymore."

The Washington Post reported that the distraught mother had considered moving with her son to Washington state, where she had found a school she thought could help him. Either way, according to Flashman, Nancy Lanza was at her wit's end.

A separate neighborhood source also told FoxNews.com that Nancy Lanza had come to the realization she could no longer handle her son alone. She was caring for him full-time, but told friends she needed help. She was planning to have him involuntarily hospitalized, according to the source, who did not know if she had taken formal steps.

SEND TIPS TO NEWSMANAGER@FOXNEWS.COM

Multiple sources told FoxNews.com Adam Lanza suffered from Asperger’s syndrome, a form of autism, and unspecified mental and emotional problems.

Adam Lanza has also been described by those who knew him as highly intelligent, and a spokesman for Western Connecticut State University told The Associated Press he took college classes there when he was 16, earning a 3.26 grade point average and excelling at a computer course.

Alan Diaz, 20, who was friends with Adam Lanza at Newtown High School, said the Lanza he knew was ill-at-ease socially, but not a monster.

"He was a wicked smart kid," Diaz told FoxNews.com by email. "When I first met him, he wouldn't even look at you when you tried to talk to him. Over the year I knew him, he became used to me and my other friends, he eventually could have full conversations with us.

"I've heard him laugh, he has even comforted me once in a hard time I had," Diaz said. “A big part of me wishes I never dropped contact with him after he left high school, felt like I could have done something."

Flashman said nobody will completely understand why Adam did what he did.

“No one can explain Adam Lanza besides God and Adam Lanza, and I don’t even think Adam Lanza could explain Adam Lanza, to be honest with you.”


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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 6:40 am 
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I Hail Randy Moss wrote:

Adam Lanza has also been described by those who knew him as highly intelligent, and a spokesman for Western Connecticut State University told The Associated Press he took college classes there when he was 16, earning a 3.26 grade point average and excelling at a computer course.



So I guess this qualifies as "highly intelligent" nowadays? A 3.26 GPA and excelling at a computer course? I must be a fucking genius.


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 Post subject: Re: America..why won't you just ban the fucking gun?
PostPosted: Wed Dec 19, 2012 10:04 am 
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So wait. This all boils down to "let me kill these 2 dozen or so 6 year olds, that'll show'em I'm not crazy"


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