Downloading music is stealing only because there are laws that say people own art. I think those laws are wrong, but they are still laws. And even though I don't think downloading music is wrong, it is still stealing by law.

So any analogy is not going to be logical to you because of YOUR ethical viewpoint. It becomes very easy to dismiss a logical analogy when in reality its your idealogy that is illogical (i sound like spock!).

A video game is Art to some. A finally prepared mean. A Painting. A book of hilarious riddles.
Music is art to others. Your entire stance is entirely illogical because ultimately EVERY craft can be considered an art of some kind... and your viewpoint of the whole thing is dependent entirely on what you deem art.


And the biggest problem i have with your mindset? If making art (of any kind) does not allow for the artist to have any hope of supporting the life they want to have (IE selling their art. Performing their art for a profit, etc) then there will be countless talented artists that forgo their skill entirely because they want to have a family.. which im sure happens already because the likely hood of being able to support a family when people ARENT allowed your art for free is already an extreme longshot.

Dude, my ethics has nothing to do with logic. Logic is logic, it's not the same as an idealogy. You either have good logic or bad logic, there is no opinion involved.

An analogy is either logically equivalent or it isn't, it's not a matter of opinion or idealogy, it's a matter of logic, and so far the analogies in this thread have had shitty logic.

Bullshit.
IF you believe that art itself can not be a product to be sold, then yes, the analogies arent going to hold any weight.
IF you think the music itself, the art enclosed IS a product like any other, then how is it illogical to compare to any other product, when it IS any other product?

I'm done arguing logic with you, it's pointless, but I will address this.

I've told you why this argument holds no weight for me. I know hundreds of metal bands who work full-time jobs and have families yet release albums every couple years like any other famous band. Artists who care about their craft will continue to make art. The existence of the metal genre, and many other genres like ambient and electronic, essentially completely disprove your argument.

Artists that care enough about their craft to be worth a shit in the first place won't be stopped from pursuing it just because they can't make a living doing it. Notice it's usually losers who can't write music for shit who drop out of college because they want to make a living being in a band. It happens the other way around.

Because they aren't logically equivalent.

Even if the music contained within is a product, it is not a product that is constrained by supply nor demand. It is a product with infinite supply, unlike bread. You buy bread, it is gone. You download music, it is still there. That is why they aren't logically equivalent, and that is why bread costs money and will always cost money.

I'm gonna find something really happy and positive and hopefully it won't be a controversial thread.

Buffalahed, are you saying that all copyright laws be abolished for anything that can be distributed digitally? This would include things like architect drawings, books, computer software, computer games, etc.... That the only time these services have value is when the creator is purposefully hired to provide them.

So your entire justification for stealing music is that some guys that no one has ever heard of work a job and then make music?
What if they didnt have to work that job, and could focus all their energy on their art? What if a great artist knocks up a girl and does the responsible thing and decides to get a job instead of honing his craft? You can care about your craft and not have the means to continue to work on it.

You're basically making the same argument jammer is.
ART SHOULD BE FREE MAN!!!




and the supply demand thing (you responded after i posted it).
Just because there is infinite supply, doesnt mean that the demand should not dictate the price. and the supply is not infinite.
Sure, Evenflow can be downloaded an infinite number of times (lossy!).

But what if because evenflow was downloaded and never sold enough for the label to allow a second album... and the band went on to other projects.. then we wouldnt have Vitalogy- the supply would diminish if there was no money in art- regardless of your personal viewpoint about any artist "worth a shit".

So on some level I can see how the bread angle can seem illogical from a supply demand aspect, but ultimately it is the same- A product that someone else has created and owns is stolen if you take it without compensating them.

It may sound like that's what I'm saying, but I'm not.

I recognize that this is a complex issue, and I don't claim to have all the answers. I think that there is a problem with the way intellectual property rights work right now, but I don't necessarily think we should do away with them completely. I'm not sure that anyone really has all the answers. The point is that we live in a different age now and I don't think the old rules will suffice forever.

Fair enough. In the meantime, should the current laws be applied?

Uh, no... my entire justification was on the last page, and it wasn't that some guys have a job and make music. Feel free to go read it.


And it is only "ultimately" the same because they are both stealing, and I already admitted that is stealing. But aside from both being stealing, they are actually completely different, and not at all logically equivalent.

Of course. It would be redundant for me to go around in every thread saying we should uphold our laws. When I'm giving my opinions, it's my opinion of what the law should be, not whether we should break laws because I don't agree with them.

You're adorable.
Lets Drink!

I'm just going to say I'm happy not everyone views art the same way you do. The world would be deprived of some fantastic films, plays, books, exhibits, etc that take a lot more time, effort and resources to be created than four dudes in a rehearsal room in between their nine-to-five jobs.

Exactly.

It's Record Store Day today and I bought two albums, Wowee Zowee and Brighten The Corners, both remasters and both albums I had previously downloaded.

Quoting is stealing.

Dear Annie,

I get most of my music from musicmp3.ru, where it's 15 cents a track. Is this stealing, capitalism, or...am I pirate? I read about pirates and I don't want to be one of them.

Nervous in Nebraska