Post subject: Re: So how about that Honduran coup?
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 1:04 am
Menace to Dogciety
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:54 pm Posts: 12287 Location: Manguetown Gender: Male
I know very little about it, but I love how Chávez seems more worried than the Honduran population.
_________________ There's just no mercy in your eyes There ain't no time to set things right And I'm afraid I've lost the fight I'm just a painful reminder Another day you leave behind
this may not be 100% accurate, but it's what i heard: apparently the prez was trying to force through a chavez-like referendum to approve changes to the constitution that would allow him to be re-elected indefinitely, but he didn't submit the proposal for the referendum to have it approved by congress (as he should've), so the military chief cried foul and tried to stop it from taking place (the referendum), so el presidente sacked him, and the military decided to hit back.
Post subject: Re: So how about that Honduran coup?
Posted: Tue Jun 30, 2009 4:25 pm
Supersonic
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:43 am Posts: 10694
rafa_garcia18 wrote:
this may not be 100% accurate, but it's what i heard: apparently the prez was trying to force through a chavez-like referendum to approve changes to the constitution that would allow him to be re-elected indefinitely, but he didn't submit the proposal for the referendum to have it approved by congress (as he should've), so the military chief cried foul and tried to stop it from taking place (the referendum), so el presidente sacked him, and the military decided to hit back.
Yup. It's important to note that the president was a Chavista too.
the supreme court was also against the referendum.
its hard to equate a proposed referendum with a coup.
i think it was more than proposed, they were all ready and about to carry it out if i understood correctly.
i still agree with what you said, it seems extreme. i wonder what kind of legal precedent (if any) is available and what it would indicate to do. what kind of response and from whom would've been appropriate?
Anything that pisses Chavez off can't be all bad, amirite.
depends on the manner of his reaction i guess. i never rule out the possiblity of a megalomaniac asserting his virility by mobilizing troops to cause a fuss
Forwarded to me, not sure if this is fact or "internet fact"
"President Manuel Zelaya attempted to hold an illegal and unconstitutional referendum designed to extend his presidential term indefinitely. It was a classic move in the style of Hugo Chávez, and Mr. Zelaya vowed to go through with it against a unanimous Supreme Court Ruling, a vote by the Honduran Congress, and an official ruling by the country’s supreme electoral commission. No printer in Honduras would print ballots for the illegal referendum, but Hugo Chávez helped out his Honduran pal by printing the ballots in Venezuela and flying them into the country, where they were impounded at the airport by the Honduran military. Yesterday Manuel Zelaya was ousted with the help of the army, but the new government is not a military one; the new president, Roberto Micheletti, is from the Honduran Congress."
Tegucigalpa, Honduras – Sometimes, the whole world prefers a lie to the truth. The White House, the United Nations, the Organization of American States, and much of the media have condemned the ouster of Honduran President Manuel Zelaya this past weekend as a coup d'état. That is nonsense.
In fact, what happened here is nothing short of the triumph of the rule of law. To understand recent events, you have to know a bit about Honduras's constitutional history. In 1982, my country adopted a new Constitution that enabled our orderly return to democracy after years of military rule. After more than a dozen previous constitutions, the current Constitution, at 27 years old, has endured the longest.
It has endured because it responds and adapts to changing political conditions: Of its original 379 articles, seven have been completely or partially repealed, 18 have been interpreted, and 121 have been reformed.
It also includes seven articles that cannot be repealed or amended because they address issues that are critical for us. Those unchangeable articles include the form of government; the extent of our borders; the number of years of the presidential term; two prohibitions – one with respect to reelection of presidents, the other concerning eligibility for the presidency; and one article that penalizes the abrogation of the Constitution.
During these 27 years, Honduras has dealt with its problems within the rule of law. Every successful democratic country has lived through similar periods of trial and error until they were able to forge legal frameworks that adapt to their reality. France crafted more than a dozen constitutions between 1789 and the adoption of the current one in 1958. The US Constitution has been amended 27 times since 1789. And the British – pragmatic as they are – in 900 years have made so many changes that they have never bothered to compile their Constitution into a single body of law.
Under our Constitution, what happened in Honduras this past Sunday? Soldiers arrested and sent out of the country a Honduran citizen who, the day before, through his own actions had stripped himself of the presidency.
These are the facts: On June 26, President Zelaya issued a decree ordering all government employees to take part in the "Public Opinion Poll to convene a National Constitutional Assembly." In doing so, Zelaya triggered a constitutional provision that automatically removed him from office.
Constitutional assemblies are convened to write new constitutions. When Zelaya published that decree to initiate an "opinion poll" about the possibility of convening a national assembly, he contravened the unchangeable articles of the Constitution that deal with the prohibition of reelecting a president and of extending his term. His actions showed intent.
Our Constitution takes such intent seriously. According to Article 239: "No citizen who has already served as head of the Executive Branch can be President or Vice-President. Whoever violates this law or proposes its reform [emphasis added], as well as those that support such violation directly or indirectly, will immediately cease in their functions and will be unable to hold any public office for a period of 10 years."
Notice that the article speaks about intent and that it also says "immediately" – as in "instant," as in "no trial required," as in "no impeachment needed."
Continuismo – the tendency of heads of state to extend their rule indefinitely – has been the lifeblood of Latin America's authoritarian tradition. The Constitution's provision of instant sanction might sound draconian, but every Latin American democrat knows how much of a threat to our fragile democracies continuismo presents. In Latin America, chiefs of state have often been above the law. The instant sanction of the supreme law has successfully prevented the possibility of a new Honduran continuismo.
The Supreme Court and the attorney general ordered Zelaya's arrest for disobeying several court orders compelling him to obey the Constitution. He was detained and taken to Costa Rica. Why? Congress needed time to convene and remove him from office. With him inside the country that would have been impossible. This decision was taken by the 123 (of the 128) members of Congress present that day. Don't believe the coup myth. The Honduran military acted entirely within the bounds of the Constitution. The military gained nothing but the respect of the nation by its actions.
I am extremely proud of my compatriots. Finally, we have decided to stand up and become a country of laws, not men. From now on, here in Honduras, no one will be above the law.
Has anyone come across a retort to this argument? Any further information out there?
Last edited by simple schoolboy on Sat Jul 04, 2009 9:37 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Post subject: Re: So how about that Honduran coup?
Posted: Sat Jul 04, 2009 4:25 am
Menace to Dogciety
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:54 pm Posts: 12287 Location: Manguetown Gender: Male
It seems to be fact that Zelaya infriged the constitution. The problem was the lack of tact of the honduran authorities, specially now that most of the continent has leaders from the left.
_________________ There's just no mercy in your eyes There ain't no time to set things right And I'm afraid I've lost the fight I'm just a painful reminder Another day you leave behind
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