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 Post subject: Re: N&D Book Club
PostPosted: Thu May 20, 2010 9:37 pm 
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i'm also planning on reading this:

Mullahs, Guards, and Bonyads: An Exploration of Iranian Leadership Dynamics

i think it might be a little dry (i have no idea in all honesty, just assuming) and i don't know how interested any of you'd be. but it's a free PDF, so there's that.

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 Post subject: Re: N&D Book Club
PostPosted: Thu Jun 10, 2010 5:49 am 
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thodoks wrote:

i have the book rented from the library. when do we want to start?

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 Post subject: Re: N&D Book Club
PostPosted: Fri Aug 06, 2010 3:40 am 
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Any suggestions for good libertarian political theory? I'd prefer it be primarily political and philosophical, rather than focusing extensively on economic principles (focusing on how they relate to the liberty or whatever else is fine though).

Any suggestions welcome, except objectivist works and the following three:
Anarchy, State, and Utopia (library's copy is out until December)
Road to Serfdom (one copy is also out until December, the other is "missing")
Capitalism and Freedom (douchebag wrote all over the library's only copy and, evidently, does not like Milton Friedman much; way too distracting. this really bothers me actually, the whole writing on something you don't own.)

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 Post subject: Re: N&D Book Club
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:44 pm 
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Hi guys

How bout we read:
Image

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 Post subject: Re: N&D Book Club
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 3:56 pm 
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my periscope just went up, but there's no way i'll have time for this

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 Post subject: Re: N&D Book Club
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:32 pm 
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Hey, I was just about to start reading Road to Serfdom. Only managed the introduction yesterday but I'll get stuck into it ASAP.

I read Friedman's Free to Choose a couple of months back and it blew me away, I wanted to read something to get my head around liberal economics and I found myself being comprehensively won over. When I get the time, I'm definitely going to go back and read Capitalism and Freedom.


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 Post subject: Re: N&D Book Club
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:37 pm 
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spenno wrote:
Hey, I was just about to start reading Road to Serfdom. Only managed the introduction yesterday but I'll get stuck into it ASAP.

I read Friedman's Free to Choose a couple of months back and it blew me away, I wanted to read something to get my head around liberal economics and I found myself being comprehensively won over. When I get the time, I'm definitely going to go back and read Capitalism and Freedom.

As someone who is quite sympathetic to the case for economic liberalization, I should warn you not to expect a great deal of insight from The Road to Serfdom. Hayek's academic writings have influenced my thinking as much as any other collection of works, but The Road to Serfdom wouldn't be among the first few dozen books I'd recommend to anyone interested in learning more about the case for capitalism.

FWIW

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 Post subject: Re: N&D Book Club
PostPosted: Tue Apr 12, 2011 10:43 pm 
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thodoks wrote:
spenno wrote:
Hey, I was just about to start reading Road to Serfdom. Only managed the introduction yesterday but I'll get stuck into it ASAP.

I read Friedman's Free to Choose a couple of months back and it blew me away, I wanted to read something to get my head around liberal economics and I found myself being comprehensively won over. When I get the time, I'm definitely going to go back and read Capitalism and Freedom.

As someone who is quite sympathetic to the case for economic liberalization, I should warn you not to expect a great deal of insight from The Road to Serfdom. Hayek's academic writings have influenced my thinking as much as any other collection of works, but The Road to Serfdom wouldn't be among the first few dozen books I'd recommend to anyone interested in learning more about the case for capitalism.

FWIW

I'll bear that in mind.

Anything else you can recommend?

To be honest, lurking around reading the economics thread (and your posts in particular) is one of the main things than pushed me down this path.


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 Post subject: Re: N&D Book Club
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 1:55 pm 
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spenno wrote:
Anything else you can recommend?

This depends on what you're looking for.

The case for capitalism, and markets in general, is to me less convincing when framed as a philosophical end than when framed as an economic means. That is, I find arguments that oppose measures like price and wage controls on the grounds that they infringe upon producers' and consumers' property rights less persuasive than an economic explanation of how those measures disproportionately harm those most economically disadvantaged (the less educated and less skilled amongst a given pool of labor). So, my recommendations tend to be more technical and less philosophical in nature. That said, I can recommend books for either preference.

More technical primers on economics:
1. Economics in One Lesson, by Henry Hazlitt. This is always my first recommendation for anyone interested in understanding the case for markets. There are no graphs and no equations. More than anything, this is an introduction to economic reasoning. This book, better than any other introduction to economics, explains how to begin thinking rigorously by identifying opportunity costs and trying to grasp the entire picture when analyzing a given policy.

2. Basic Economics, by Thomas Sowell. Again, no graphs or equations, but a more rigorous treatment of the particulars of basic economic theory. It's basically a more fleshed out, empirical take on Hazlitt's book. There is much overlap with Hazlitt's work, so it's understandable if you want to skip this and move on to more precise topics. But try to read it at some point.

3. Individualism and Economic Order, by Freidrich Hayek. A collection of some of his best writings. This book helps explain why an accurate understanding of incentives and an appreciation of the individual as the only economic actor of concern is paramount in developing sound economic policies. Outlines some of the shortcomings of (doubtlessly well-intentioned) social and economic policy. A great, often overlooked book.

4. Mystery of Capital, by Hernando De Soto. Once you know a bit about how and why markets work the way they do (or are otherwise prevented from working how they could), you should develop an understanding of what exactly "capital" is, and why basic legal structures are crucial to facilitating broad economic development. This book helped me distill not just why government and legal frameworks are necessary, but also helped me refine my understanding of their optimal scope (read: small, but exacting, precise, and ruthlessly consistent in their enforcement of contracts and existing law).

At this point, you should begin to develop an interest in particular economic topics. Just pursue whatever interests you.

More philosophical primers on economics:
1. Economics in One Lesson, by Henry Hazlitt. Yeah, same book. It's that important.

2. The Constitution of Liberty, by Friedrich Hayek. A more serious treatment of the topics touched upon in Road to Serfdom.

3. Anarchy, State, and Utopia, by Robert Nozick. A good philosophical treatment of the case for small government. This is all about moral conviction, as few economic arguments are advanced.

That's a pretty great foundation. I would say reading and understanding these would really stretch your brain, even if you end up not buying what they're selling.

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 Post subject: Re: N&D Book Club
PostPosted: Wed Apr 13, 2011 3:35 pm 
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I found the basic premise of Mystery of Capital fascinating (that people in developing countries often have the stuff, property and possessions, but lack the means turn their stuff into capital)...or at least that's what I remember it being. But after awhile the book kinda dragged on for me. Maybe it was because I read like 100 pages of it during jury duty that I soured on it towards the end. Or maybe I didn't quite finish it. I remember a lot of obstacles and problems being introduced, but I don't really recall solutions. Perhaps that wasn't the purpose of the book, or maybe I didn't finish it. But either way, the first half of the book was really interesting.

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 Post subject: Re: N&D Book Club
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 6:35 am 
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Wow, thanks a bunch thodoks. Will definitely save that list and check those out once I'm done with Road to Serfdom and my ever-present piles of uni-related reading.

I guess I'll start with Hazlitt and go forth from there.


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 Post subject: Re: N&D Book Club
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:13 pm 
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4/5 wrote:
I found the basic premise of Mystery of Capital fascinating (that people in developing countries often have the stuff, property and possessions, but lack the means turn their stuff into capital)...or at least that's what I remember it being. But after awhile the book kinda dragged on for me. Maybe it was because I read like 100 pages of it during jury duty that I soured on it towards the end. Or maybe I didn't quite finish it. I remember a lot of obstacles and problems being introduced, but I don't really recall solutions. Perhaps that wasn't the purpose of the book, or maybe I didn't finish it. But either way, the first half of the book was really interesting.

Didn't you say you really enjoyed Hazlitt's book?

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 Post subject: Re: N&D Book Club
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:20 pm 
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Oh, want me to focus on the positives? Yeah I did. I thought it was a pretty brilliant intro to pro-capitalism economics. I have my economically-challenged friend reading it right now.

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 Post subject: Re: N&D Book Club
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 12:25 pm 
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4/5 wrote:
Oh, want me to focus on the positives? Yeah I did. I thought it was a pretty brilliant intro to pro-capitalism economics. I have my economically-challenged friend reading it right now.

I'm interested in the whole of your opinions, even if they differ from mine.

I've bought that book for several people, and the two people who actually read really enjoyed it.

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 Post subject: Re: N&D Book Club
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:02 pm 
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I really enjoyed the book. I'm currently trying to figure out how to reconcile economic truths with philosophical ideas that don't always mesh.

On a related note, does self-interest = greed?

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 Post subject: Re: N&D Book Club
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 1:09 pm 
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4/5 wrote:
On a related note, does self-interest = greed?

It can. But per se, no. Lots of philosophical and economic reconciling in this thread:

viewtopic.php?f=7&t=82918

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 Post subject: Re: N&D Book Club
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:47 pm 
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4/5 wrote:
I really enjoyed the book. I'm currently trying to figure out how to reconcile economic truths with philosophical ideas that don't always mesh.

On a related note, does self-interest = greed?

you've got to define greed before we can go anywhere with this

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 Post subject: Re: N&D Book Club
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 3:56 pm 
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That thread was pretty interesting.

I just brought it up because my friend (who is reading the Hazlitt book) maintains his anti-capitalism stance because it promotes greed. So we've spent a lot of times semi-drunkenly debating the difference between self-interest and greed, whether capitalism is the cause of that greed or human nature is to blame, etc.

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 Post subject: Re: N&D Book Club
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:09 pm 
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4/5 wrote:
...my friend (who is reading the Hazlitt book) maintains his anti-capitalism stance because it promotes greed. So we've spent a lot of times semi-drunkenly debating the difference between self-interest and greed, whether capitalism is the cause of that greed or human nature is to blame, etc.


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 Post subject: Re: N&D Book Club
PostPosted: Thu Apr 14, 2011 5:12 pm 
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So what's that a video of? Can't see anything at work.

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