Let me preface this by saying that I readily admit this isn’t a fully fleshed out proposal by any means, but its something that I keep coming back to whenever I think about Universal Health Care. It is sort of the end point in the fight between head and heart over health care. My objection to a UHC system of the European style, or like the one currently being proposed, stems foremost from a firm belief that the government is an inherently inefficient provider of services in comparison with private enterprises. Not to mention the high cost of such a system, how it would be paid for, and the necessary further expansion of governmental power to run such an arrangement. However, for all the negatives involved, and there are certainly more than I just mentioned, I have been unable to shake the belief that we (when I say “we” I mean us as the people, the taxpayers, because when we talk about “government funded health care” what we are really discussing is taxpayer funded health care) should consider paying for guaranteed “catastrophic health care.” My position comes from a couple of assumptions.
1. Private insurance companies are first and foremost a business. 2. The goal of a business is to make money, for themselves and their shareholders. 3. As a result they make decisions that are in their best interests, not necessarily those of the client.
There is nothing essentially evil about this in and of itself. However, we are often talking about life and death, or at least quality of life. There are unexpected circumstances that spring up and despite the best plans, savings, etc, a person can be left with no way to obtain/pay for needed medical care. Perhaps these occasions are rare, perhaps not. I think it is in our best interests to provide health care for these persons without draining them of their resources, or putting them into grave debt. I don’t claim to know the cost of such a system, except that I’m sure it would be considerably less than what is currently being proposed.
This goes against my ideas about government spending, taxation, etc on a most basic level. Despite this, I simply can not conceive that any loss of productivity as a result of the taxes needed to pay for this (which would be spread over all taxpayers, not merely the rich and corporations) isn’t worth the trade off in human life. This is one of the issues where perhaps my judgment becomes clouded because rather than focusing on the numbers that illustrate why this is less efficient, I focus on the idea that we are discussing human life, not an abstract concept of productivity lost or gained. Ironically, the article Little Wing posted in the UHC thread last night or this morning sets about the same basic premise, but gets there through a completely different method: private insurance should be used only for major things; not for routine checkups, etc. The end is nearly the same, and I may actually agree with that position after all. I’m sure there are plenty of holes in this idea of guaranteed catastrophic health care, since I really don’t know the ins and outs of health care; this is really nothing more than the basic thought I’ve had about health care. So when objections and points are raised, if it appears that I’m vacillating, in reality I’m not sold on any one answer, so I’m open to ideas.
By “catastrophic” I mean major illness, IE cancer, or major disability, such as major injuries from a car accident, or things of the like. Procedures that are so expensive we can agree it is irrational to expect the vast majority of citizens to pay for themselves. Something like that.
Perhaps this doesn't need its own thread.
_________________ "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." -- John Steinbeck
This is the article I mentioned. Its written in a somewhat douchey way, but try to ignore that and focus on the point he is getting at.
LittleWing wrote:
June 16, 2009 Health Care Is Not That Complicated By C. Edmund Wright
It is no more practical to have "health insurance" to pay for prescription drugs and routine doctor visits than it is to expect your auto insurance to pay for your oil changes and tire rotations.
But we do.
Consider: if a health insurance type system existed for auto insurance, it would certainly result in those quick lube oil changes costing about 95 dollars instead of something like 29. It would require an army of public and private sector bureaucrats to shuffle mounds of paper with hundreds of mouse clicks to make sure you were eligible for your lube job, that you paid your 10 dollar "lube co-pay" and that the remaining 85 bucks was eventually approved by a Chevy lube specialist underwriter.
We won't even mention the fact that your wait in the quick change waiting room would likely resemble the long wait in a doctor's office, as every other customer transaction would become the paperwork root canal yours is.
(And of course, those who do not have "lube insurance" or the 95 dollars in cash to pay for the lube, will go to the emergency engine shop where they will gum up the works for real emergencies and their lube can be done at no charge to them. This is also known as a different kind of lube job to those of us who pay our own way, who will get hit with a 1200 dollar tax tab for their "free" job.)
Thus, our healthcare dollars get eaten up by processing claims and indigent care.
Bottom line? The confusion between "health care" and "health insurance" as public policy issues -- along with the near universal misunderstanding of what health insurance is (or should be) -- is making what should be a rather simple financial planning market solution a national nightmare.
Moreover, the nuanced difference in the language used has turned the issue much more emotional and much less rational, politically. We say we must reform the system to prevent families from going bankrupt over medical bills, then turn around and debate systems that micro-manage the costs of pills and routine check ups. Well, which do we really want to do? Those are entirely different issues.
The problem begins with the almost universal misapplication of the terms. Health insurance does not insure your health, nor was it ever intended to. Health care insurance, formerly called "medical insurance," is merely an instrument of neutralizing risk. Financial risk, that is.
It was brought about by a need to insure a family's assets against a dread disease requiring care so expensive it would wipe that family out financially. As a strictly financial planning endeavor, the issue never seemed to be discussed in terms of being "a right" or in terms of "compassion."
But "medical insurance" as a component of financial planning has morphed into "health care" as a right for everyone in the new political parlance. And not only is the insurance a right, but the insurance should be "free" and it should cover everything from routine care visits to erectile dysfunction to ADHD to gender re-assignment surgery.
Yes, gender re-assignment surgery. I'm not sure even Ayn Rand saw that one coming.
Instead of being viewed as a financial instrument to keep a family from losing everything in an effort to pay for a cancer treatment or heart surgery, it has become viewed as an endless supply of other people's money to pay for everything related to healthcare -- so the family can buy every car, boat, flat screen, iPod and laptop they want with their own money.
And families that like to have other people pay for their needs so that they can invest in the toys are easy fodder for politicians promising more of the same. Especially when those politicians use vaporous and misleading terms like "investing in healthcare" as part of a "stronger economy" and so on. This language enables the takers in society to simultaneously take what they want from others and feel good about their right to do so.
This mindset has not only led to exorbitant costs to taxpayers to pay for government employee health plans, it has forced skyrocketing costs onto private plans who have to include all kinds of coverage mandated by various legislatures and well-connected unions. It even led to early release of criminals in California to pay for the healthcare of those who remained behind bars.
The media would have you believe this is just more proof that the private sector "is failing us." Alas, just like the mortgage and housing meltdown, in reality it was a private sector failing under the weight of unsustainable government mandates.
Which of course leads to the inescapable conclusion that the very worst thing we can do to solve it is to allow that very same government to have total control over it.
The solution is to get back to the original intent of health insurance and an understanding of what it is. And more importantly, what it is not.
Health insurance, like any other insurance, is the spreading of financial risk. Period. The financial risk in health care is - as Fred Sanford used to say - "the big one." To purely insure against that eventuality would not cost a lot. It would not require an army of paper pushers and mouse clickers at every step of your life. (Wait until we see how much fun that can be.) It is a rather simple actuarial equation.
Insuring this way would take the huge administrative burden off of the system. It would reduce costs dramatically. It would by definition encourage healthier habits. It would shrink the rolls of the uninsured.
As an example, our family pays about 11 thousand a year for a health plan that includes two adults and two children. With that, we have a confusing schedule of co-pays and deductibles that sometimes results in an illogical refusal of coverage on some procedures, but of course it covers a lot of things that are also illogical. And we get our scrips for something in the range of 10-50 dollars on a co pay.
With so much of our provider's costs eaten up with paper pushing, our catastrophic protection is not what I would like. But thanks to government, I have no choice. To get licensed in our state, companies are forced to cover certain items that dictate their entire pricing structure.
As someone with some 29 business ventures in the last 30 years - including a stint as a Life and Health Insurance Agent - I think it's a reasonable guess that something like a minimum of 2500 to 3000 dollars of our 11 thou in health insurance costs are eaten up by the bureaucratic piece of processing co pays and claims for routine services. It is only that low because the insurance industry has been a driving force in efficiency software innovation because they are such huge customers of it.
(Obama-care will not provide such efficiencies. They'll just refuse or delay care to patients and pay to providers to feed their huge bureaucracies. In other words, a typical government program. I will let you interpret what "delaying" care means to elderly patients.)
What would be preferable to not only our family but to the "system" itself is the option of a policy that simply allows us to pay the first 8 or 10 thousand ourselves for care, instead of to an insurance company. Then we could pay the insurer a few thou to provide catastrophic insurance, so if the "big one" hits, we are not wiped out.
In the meantime, that first 8 or 10 thou would go a lot further since it would be paying for "care" and not for administration of paperwork and claims and so on. You know, the same reason you get a pill from mail order at a third of the price at your local pharmacy.
It really is no more complicated than that. Oh, it will be hard, because nearly a generation of Americans never bothered to think through a little analogy like the auto insurance example - and they like to have their needs met by OPM - and they have convinced themselves it is a right.
But complicated? No. It might even bring the cost of gender reassignment surgery down.
In short, it seems he's arguing we don't need insurance for the routine things, but we do need it for the catastrophic, which is what at this point many of us aren't getting from our insurance.
_________________ "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." -- John Steinbeck
Post subject: Re: Guaranteed "Catastrophic" Health Care?
Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 2:22 pm
Stone's Bitch
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:04 am Posts: 2057 Location: The end of the spiral...
Like I said before, there are a lot of things I've been giving thought to on this subject as well, and this idea is very similar to what I've been kicking around in my head.
It's a compromise. You still have entitlement, to some degree, and you'd still have the inefficiency of goverment, but it would likely be a much easier program to run if you cut all the small things out of the picture.
Post subject: Re: Guaranteed "Catastrophic" Health Care?
Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:09 pm
Former PJ Drummer
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 5:51 am Posts: 17078 Location: TX
I might point out that the problem with healthcare cost in America goes well beyond simple catastrophes. I'm talking about the cost of drugs, the cost of tests, the cost of seeing multiple specialists. None of those really have to do with catastrophes or surgeries, but they are hugely expensive.
I'm not trying to imply anything here, just pointing this out.
Post subject: Re: Guaranteed "Catastrophic" Health Care?
Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 4:31 pm
Stone's Bitch
Joined: Fri Jan 28, 2005 1:04 am Posts: 2057 Location: The end of the spiral...
Buffalohed wrote:
I might point out that the problem with healthcare cost in America goes well beyond simple catastrophes. I'm talking about the cost of drugs, the cost of tests, the cost of seeing multiple specialists. None of those really have to do with catastrophes or surgeries, but they are hugely expensive.
I'm not trying to imply anything here, just pointing this out.
Very true. If we were to be able to implement some sort of program to cover catastrophic expenses, it would need to be coupled with some sort of plan to reduce costs across the board.
There are probably a number of ways to do this, and government intervention on some level is probably a given, even if it isn't ideal.
I have personally witnessed higher expenses being charged for services because the doctors know they can get payment from an insurance company. I've confonted doctors on it, and been given the run-a-round.
I have also personally witnessed horribly excessive fees being charged by hospitals which were later reduced drastically when someone started digging. In one example, a doctors office was caring for a patient who had a devestating car accident (he had to mortgage his home to pay for the care--he was totally OK with it because he knew the care saved his life). In the process of settling these medical bills, he sought the help of a company that reviewed bills for inconsistencies. They found one situation where he was being charged, daily, for medicine that was 10 times the reccomended dosage. That amount of medicine would have killed him. when confronted with this, and other consistencies, the hospital immediately agreed to slash the bill in half. This is one example from a small town hospital (where you'd think you could expect a degree of honesty). This sort of thing is rampant. There is no question that care is expensive, and we can't expect that to change, but I am 100% sure that the elimination (or at least reduction) of these sorts of occurences would cut costs fairly significantly.
I might point out that the problem with healthcare cost in America goes well beyond simple catastrophes. I'm talking about the cost of drugs, the cost of tests, the cost of seeing multiple specialists. None of those really have to do with catastrophes or surgeries, but they are hugely expensive.
I'm not trying to imply anything here, just pointing this out.
Perhaps eliminating bureaucracy in things exactly like the cost of drugs, routine tests, what insurance must cover, etc would be an excellent first step for costs to fall.
_________________ "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." -- John Steinbeck
Post subject: Re: Guaranteed "Catastrophic" Health Care?
Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 5:24 pm
Administrator
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:51 pm Posts: 14534 Location: Mesa,AZ
aprilfifth wrote:
In short, it seems he's arguing we don't need insurance for the routine things, but we do need it for the catastrophic, which is what at this point many of us aren't getting from our insurance.
I've taken this position for awhile now. I find it absurd that we think our health insurance should pay for things that are, for all intents and purposes, maintenance. Hiding the costs of minor medical expenses makes people think they are free, and creates a giant moral hazard.
_________________
John Adams wrote:
In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress.
Post subject: Re: Guaranteed "Catastrophic" Health Care?
Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:15 pm
Unthought Known
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:47 pm Posts: 9282 Location: Atlanta Gender: Male
aprilfifth wrote:
Buffalohed wrote:
I might point out that the problem with healthcare cost in America goes well beyond simple catastrophes. I'm talking about the cost of drugs, the cost of tests, the cost of seeing multiple specialists. None of those really have to do with catastrophes or surgeries, but they are hugely expensive.
I'm not trying to imply anything here, just pointing this out.
Perhaps eliminating bureaucracy in things exactly like the cost of drugs, routine tests, what insurance must cover, etc would be an excellent first step for costs to fall.
Oh I totally agree that would absolutely bring down costs..... but how do we make this happen?
These are the end results of the combined efforts of 70 years of bureaucracy and 70 years worth of insurance companies tying themselves in with every single aspect of healthcare. These are some of the most powerful people in the world from the government to the private sector and this is thier meal ticket.
This system is not designed to be simple to understand, work effectively or be cost effective and the people that made it that way like it that way.
Post subject: Re: Guaranteed "Catastrophic" Health Care?
Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 7:39 pm
Supersonic
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:43 am Posts: 10694
I dunno if there should be guaranteed catastrophic care. How would you administer that? I mean, take Ted Kennedy. He had a tumor that would have killed 99.9% of the people in this country that had a tumor like that. He had access to the ONE DOCTOR that does those surgeries. And that doctor is only able to perform that surgery a couple times a week because it's like an 18 hour operation. How do you guarantee treatment for stuff like that?
You can only guarantee care insofar as the healthcare industry can provide you the care.
I believe that individuals should be able to shop around in the 1200 providers that exist in this country and find a plan that's right for them. People should be able to measure the risk associated with their health and income and find a good healthcare plan.
My parents were by no means rich. Particularly when I was really young. But they always strung together a healthcare plan that...just about gauranteed catastrophic coverage.
I think it's clear from my article and what I've said in the past that I believe health insurance should be for your standard catastrophes. Car accidents, broken legs that need surgery, apendectamies, cancer (some form of treatment at any rate, maybe not expiremental). Whatever level this care extends to is the responsibility of the customer. And a whatever this relationship is, it should be between the insurer and the customer.
I also don't believe in "spredding risk." If you live a shitbag life, you can have some shitbag insurance. If you live a healthy life and do all the right things, you should get reasonable health insurance that will essentially cover your catastrophes.
Post subject: Re: Guaranteed "Catastrophic" Health Care?
Posted: Thu Jul 23, 2009 8:31 pm
Stone's Bitch
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:43 pm Posts: 7633 Location: Philly Del Fia Gender: Female
Buffalohed wrote:
I might point out that the problem with healthcare cost in America goes well beyond simple catastrophes. I'm talking about the cost of drugs, the cost of tests, the cost of seeing multiple specialists. None of those really have to do with catastrophes or surgeries, but they are hugely expensive.
I'm not trying to imply anything here, just pointing this out.
Exactly. It was a few thousand dollars after all was said and done, with I ER trip, 3 doctors and a ton of blood tests just to find out I had mono. Which is pretty common, if not so much in a 27 year old. Not 'catastrophic', by any means, but doctor visits, test and meds add up frickin FAST.
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