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 Post subject: College
PostPosted: Mon Sep 14, 2009 10:40 pm 
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I thought I'd use this article as a springboard to scrutinize what the true value of college is.

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http://www.businessinsider.com/john-car ... day-2009-9

What Obama Should Have Told The Kids Today
John Carney|Sep. 8, 2009, 12:57 PM

Good morning. I’m glad you all could join us today.

Every single one of you has something you’re good at. Every single one of you has something to offer. And you have a responsibility to yourself to discover what that is. But here’s the trick: you won’t necessarily find that in the standard path of grade school to high school to college. For many of you, the opportunities classroom education can provide are very limited and likely to become even more so.

Those of you with average intelligence will find that high school is about as far as your academic talents will take you. Likewise those of you with a disposition that makes sitting in classrooms intolerable won't gain much out of "staying in school." This is nothing for you to be ashamed of—and no one should pressure you to accept the fate of failing in classes where you really shouldn’t be in the first place.

For most of you, college is an expensive waste of time. At some of our elite schools, you would form connections that are invaluable. It’s one of the things our elite colleges do best—putting the highly intelligent in the same place as the well-off and well-connected. Going to these schools serves as heuristic for employers—your admission to the school is short hand for intelligence and diligence.

But this kind of education—the standard college education—is really only suitable for somewhere around 15% of the population. Unfortunately, we now send a much higher proportion of our students to college, which amounts to a terrific economic waste.

Much of this waste—let’s call it the college education bubble—is due to distorted economics, bad government policy and misplaced social pressures. Government subsidized loans have made college attainable for many—but the ultimate debt burden can be untenable for many. The economic rewards of attending college can make it attractive—but most of those are concentrated in the extremely smart and capable. Perhaps most damaging of all, we have a create a culture of collegiate achievement that discourages you from pursuing your education and careers in ways best suited to your abilities.

There’s a serious danger that the college education bubble may burst. As more and more people get college degrees, which inevitably have to become easier to get in order to increase the amount of graduates beyond its realistic levels, the market will eventually figure out that the degree doesn’t mean what it used to. It will become less useful as a heuristic for intelligence and achievement. And college graduates will find themselves with an asset—a degree—whose value is dropping while their debt remains high.

It’s all a little reminiscent of the housing bubble. Cheap loans, rising home price, the idea of the homeownership society, and mounting debt. Except this time it is cheap loans, rising tuitions, the idea of an educated society and mounting debt.

Those of you who aren’t tempermentally or intellectually suited to college should not despair. You are smart enough to engage in any of hundreds of occupations. You can acquire more knowledge if it is presented in a format commensurate with your intellectual skills. But a genuine college education in the arts and sciences begins where your skills leave off.

Here’s how you can benefit from the coming bursting of the bubble of college education. Avoid taking on too much debt. Attend a trade school, a vocational school. We have created a dearth of craftsmen in America—we need more skilled carpenters, painters, electricians, plumbers, glaziers, masons and auto-mechanics. These will be highly in demand.

And as we upgrade our society in the direction of renewable energy and rail transport, there will be plenty of jobs building windmills, installing solar panels, laying high speed rail. These are jobs for trained craftsmen and hard workers--but not necessarily college graduates.

These are jobs that cannot be outsourced to China or India. If we sensibly restrict the competition from cheap immigration, they will remain steady occupational choices for a huge number of our citizens. Master craftsmen can earn six figures. Even journeymen craftsmen routinely make incomes in the top half of the income distribution.

Our technological revolution is quickly making degrees irrelevant for many of even the top jobs. Bill Gates didn’t graduate from college. Tumblr founder David Karp dropped out of high school. So did blip.tv founder Mike Hudack. Dropping out of the standard school curriculum is not a dead end if it leads you toward a trade where you can earn a living and be proud of your achievements.

This trend is likely to continue. Employers are increasingly demanding actual evidence you are good at something. They are less dependent on the heuristic of a college degree. More and more, people are being judged by skills rather than depress. Inevitably, the social cache that goes along with college will catch up with this economic reality—the false premium attached to a college degree will diminish.

So don’t let us down – don’t let your family or your country or yourself down. Make us all proud. Choose the type of education and the amount of education that is right for you. Don’t simply conform and go to college. I know you can do it.

Thank you. God bless you, and God bless America.


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 Post subject: Re: College
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:36 am 
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i read about half of it. i don't know if it covers this, but while college maybe shouldn't be necessary for many jobs, the fact of the matter is that it is required for many jobs, and some employers have inherent biases against those who aren't college educated, no matter what. lacking a college, or even moreso, high school education, acts as a "glass ceiling" at times when it might not directly matter (or when experience would be more valuable than an education).

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 Post subject: Re: College
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 5:47 am 
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college is a great time to boost your post count for your future resumes

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 Post subject: Re: College
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:13 am 
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windedsailor wrote:
college is a great time to boost your post count for your future resumes

:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: College
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:15 pm 
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Wow did that article really suck. I mean. Really, really, really suck. Just because people like GV are going to college and wasting their money doesn't mean that people shouldn't go to college. It means that they shouldn't waste their money on useless film degrees. It means that colleges should reform their policies. That high schools should increase standards. And that the education you recieve in college should prepare you for life, not act as a secondary daycare facility where young adults can fool around with drugs and contract venereal diseases.

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 Post subject: Re: College
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:25 pm 
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LittleWing wrote:
Wow did that article really suck. I mean. Really, really, really suck. Just because people like GV are going to college and wasting their money doesn't mean that people shouldn't go to college. It means that they shouldn't waste their money on useless film degrees. It means that colleges should reform their policies. That high schools should increase standards. And that the education you recieve in college should prepare you for life, not act as a secondary daycare facility where young adults can fool around with drugs and contract venereal diseases.

Was it really that bad?
I understand you are looking at things from the engineering school perspective, which certainly does prepare one for that particular career. However, it seems to be becoming the exception rather than the rule. I think the article was talking more about liberal arts degrees. If these really prepared people for college, they wouldn't need internships.

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 Post subject: Re: College
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 12:49 pm 
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fun aside, college as a career move is seriously overrated.

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 Post subject: Re: College
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:24 pm 
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dscans wrote:
LittleWing wrote:
Wow did that article really suck. I mean. Really, really, really suck. Just because people like GV are going to college and wasting their money doesn't mean that people shouldn't go to college. It means that they shouldn't waste their money on useless film degrees. It means that colleges should reform their policies. That high schools should increase standards. And that the education you recieve in college should prepare you for life, not act as a secondary daycare facility where young adults can fool around with drugs and contract venereal diseases.

Was it really that bad?
I understand you are looking at things from the engineering school perspective, which certainly does prepare one for that particular career. However, it seems to be becoming the exception rather than the rule. I think the article was talking more about liberal arts degrees. If these really prepared people for college, they wouldn't need internships.


Internships have their place. They bridge what you learn in the classroom with real world experience. College doesn't necessarily build a work ethic. Especially if you grew up spoiled and haven't worked a day in your life. If it was talking about certain types of college being a waste of time, then that is what needs to be reformed. Telling kids to not go to college, or that's only for the top 15% is the most asinine thing I've heard in my life. Talk about a quick road to back of the bus.

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 Post subject: Re: College
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 1:59 pm 
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thodoks wrote:
fun aside, college as a career move is seriously overrated.


Depends. If you do one of the shit new made up subjects...then yes. And nowadays, especially over here, you really need to think of getting a masters. If you get a mediocre bachelors, you better interview well.

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 Post subject: Re: College
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:13 pm 
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thodoks wrote:
fun aside, college as a career move is seriously overrated.
I would love for you to elaborate on this more, because I have a feeling you will concur on what I've been questioning, and why.

I'll just throw my experience in here, real briefly. I had a lot of fun in college, of course. However, from a professional standpoint, there was very little that I learned there that was applicable for what I would be doing as a career. The grand majority of it was learned on my own time, usually just by some intensive Googling. Some will get a good laugh at this, but I know for a fact that tinkering around with this very website made the difference more than my bachelor's degree did in jumpstarting my career. Occasionally I'll get asked if I want to go to grad school, and my reply will be that there's very little that a master's could do that I couldn't find out elsewhere.

This example obviously doesn't hold true for all careers and aspirations, but I've come to think that it may for many more than I once thought.


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 Post subject: Re: College
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 2:20 pm 
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A bachelor's degree was a means to an end in my case (obviously i'm not alone here). I would not have my government job if it wasn't for my degree. That being said - there has never been any direct application of "skills" learned through university that have helped me in the professional world.


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 Post subject: Re: College
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:04 pm 
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I agree, more people should be going to trade and vocational schools but not because they are too dumb for, or can't handle traditional college. The focus from an early age has always been on doing well in school so you can get into college and there is somewhat of a stigma associated with skilled labour and there shouldn't be. They make good money and accrue minimal debt (if any) in learning their skill.


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 Post subject: Re: College
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:18 pm 
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how many people thought of this when they read the thread title?
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 Post subject: Re: College
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:28 pm 
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MF wrote:
I agree, more people should be going to trade and vocational schools but not because they are too dumb for, or can't handle traditional college. The focus from an early age has always been on doing well in school so you can get into college and there is somewhat of a stigma associated with skilled labour and there shouldn't be. They make good money and accrue minimal debt (if any) in learning their skill.
I think a fully ticketed trade, such as electrician or plumber, is equivalent to a university degree and professional designation. When my friend went through the electrician program we were always surprised at the level of math he needed and at the beadth and depth of his learning. Really, it's quite impressive.

For career prospects there are a whole bunch of majors that won't do much for you. I have a son getting close to the university/vocational school age and my rule for university is you can only major in something that offers a professional designation. If he wants to be an english lit major, fine but he's doing it on his dime and not living at home while doing it.


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 Post subject: Re: College
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 6:43 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
thodoks wrote:
fun aside, college as a career move is seriously overrated.
I would love for you to elaborate on this more, because I have a feeling you will concur on what I've been questioning, and why.

I'll just throw my experience in here, real briefly. I had a lot of fun in college, of course. However, from a professional standpoint, there was very little that I learned there that was applicable for what I would be doing as a career. The grand majority of it was learned on my own time, usually just by some intensive Googling. Some will get a good laugh at this, but I know for a fact that tinkering around with this very website made the difference more than my bachelor's degree did in jumpstarting my career. Occasionally I'll get asked if I want to go to grad school, and my reply will be that there's very little that a master's could do that I couldn't find out elsewhere.

This example obviously doesn't hold true for all careers and aspirations, but I've come to think that it may for many more than I once thought.

pretty much. in general, i'm not impressed by the traditional classroom model of instruction. more precisely, the value added from traditional classroom instruction versus disciplined self-study is much, MUCH less than the cost of said traditional classroom instruction. the opportunity cost of education - as a function of the cost of both years spent not working, and debt accrued in order to finance said education, especially at elite institutions - is simply larger than the benefits thereof. "getting a diploma" is basically rent-seeking writ large.

MIT recently threw down the gauntlet by offering their curriculum online for free. FREE. oh, and it's available on ITunes as well. library cards are FREE. education is a very homogenous good whose quality, unfortunately, is largely determined not by the school's curriculum but by the competition therein. that is, i read the same things in Lit 101 at a state school in Alabama that they read at MIT (i know because i checked). the marginal difference between instruction quality (assuming MIT's is better, which is a leap) at auburn and at MIT is simply not worth leaving school $100,000 in debt.

college is a racket. an unbelievably fun one, but a racket nonetheless.

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 Post subject: Re: College
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:01 pm 
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thodoks wrote:
Green Habit wrote:
thodoks wrote:
fun aside, college as a career move is seriously overrated.
I would love for you to elaborate on this more, because I have a feeling you will concur on what I've been questioning, and why.

I'll just throw my experience in here, real briefly. I had a lot of fun in college, of course. However, from a professional standpoint, there was very little that I learned there that was applicable for what I would be doing as a career. The grand majority of it was learned on my own time, usually just by some intensive Googling. Some will get a good laugh at this, but I know for a fact that tinkering around with this very website made the difference more than my bachelor's degree did in jumpstarting my career. Occasionally I'll get asked if I want to go to grad school, and my reply will be that there's very little that a master's could do that I couldn't find out elsewhere.

This example obviously doesn't hold true for all careers and aspirations, but I've come to think that it may for many more than I once thought.

pretty much. in general, i'm not impressed by the traditional classroom model of instruction. more precisely, the value added from traditional classroom instruction versus disciplined self-study is much, MUCH less than the cost of said traditional classroom instruction. the opportunity cost of education - as a function of the cost of both years spent not working, and debt accrued in order to finance said education, especially at elite institutions - is simply larger than the benefits thereof. "getting a diploma" is basically rent-seeking writ large.

MIT recently threw down the gauntlet by offering their curriculum online for free. FREE. oh, and it's available on ITunes as well. library cards are FREE. education is a very homogenous good whose quality, unfortunately, is largely determined not by the school's curriculum but by the competition therein. that is, i read the same things in Lit 101 at a state school in Alabama that they read at MIT (i know because i checked). the marginal difference between instruction quality (assuming MIT's is better, which is a leap) at auburn and at MIT is simply not worth leaving school $100,000 in debt.

college is a racket. an unbelievably fun one, but a racket nonetheless.


Nobody goes to MIT to read what you read in lit 101. The go to learn about calculus and calc based physics. They go to learn about differential equations and boundary value problems. They go to learn about relativity, photo-voltaic solar cells, internal combustion engines and the like. If you go to college and pay any sort of money to take a lit class, it should be because it's a sidebar requirement. That requirement serves as an addendum to your more important education and should be formulated to make you a more well rounded individual. It's meant to balance what you already know and apply it in a different fashion. My English classes are not the epicenter of my education, but they have provided me the foundation to basically ace every lab report and research paper that I've ever turned in. Education should be about balance.

I don't think that an electrical degree is equivelant of a degree at MIT at all. Electricians and technicians that lack a decent college education are nothing but cogs. How quick this board is to forget about David's philosophy thread. People need a well balanced education in order to be able to make informed decisions and solve problems. Most technicians are one dimensional in nature, and it's because none of them have taken any substantive classes in philosophy, mathematics, chemistry, physics. They haven't read anything, they don't know a thing about history, politics, or economics.

You want people to not go to college? You want people to just learn a trade on the job? Fine. You know what that will get you? A bunch of useful idiots. It basically will amount to a 9/12 rally. Don't teach people the ideas behind natural selection. Let them just because brick layers, welders, and electricians. You get what you pay for.

As for people wasting money in college? Sure. I have roomate that is paying $10,000 this quarter and she's taking two photo classes, a class called "death and dying," Beers of the World, and The History of Baseball. But just because she's a fucking idiot throwing her money away doesn't mean that a balanced education doesn't have any value to it, or that people shouldn't seek a college education.

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 Post subject: Re: College
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:08 pm 
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LittleWing wrote:
I don't think that an electrical degree is equivelant of a degree at MIT at all. Electricians and technicians that lack a decent college education are nothing but cogs. How quick this board is to forget about David's philosophy thread. People need a well balanced education in order to be able to make informed decisions and solve problems. Most technicians are one dimensional in nature, and it's because none of them have taken any substantive classes in philosophy, mathematics, chemistry, physics. They haven't read anything, they don't know a thing about history, politics, or economics.

You want people to not go to college? You want people to just learn a trade on the job? Fine. You know what that will get you? A bunch of useful idiots. It basically will amount to a 9/12 rally. Don't teach people the ideas behind natural selection. Let them just because brick layers, welders, and electricians. You get what you pay for.

As for people wasting money in college? Sure. I have roomate that is paying $10,000 this quarter and she's taking two photo classes, a class called "death and dying," Beers of the World, and The History of Baseball. But just because she's a fucking idiot throwing her money away doesn't mean that a balanced education doesn't have any value to it, or that people shouldn't seek a college education.
For earning power after school, I think a fully ticketed electrician is going to do okay and get a better return on investment income than an MIT grad.

Quite a bit of the well rounded education that you want people to get is very easy for people to get on their free time. It would be better if everyone got it either on their own or at school but a lack of it is not going to hurt too many peoples earning power.


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 Post subject: Re: College
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not a lot of poonani at electrician school


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 Post subject: Re: College
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tyler wrote:
LittleWing wrote:
I don't think that an electrical degree is equivelant of a degree at MIT at all. Electricians and technicians that lack a decent college education are nothing but cogs. How quick this board is to forget about David's philosophy thread. People need a well balanced education in order to be able to make informed decisions and solve problems. Most technicians are one dimensional in nature, and it's because none of them have taken any substantive classes in philosophy, mathematics, chemistry, physics. They haven't read anything, they don't know a thing about history, politics, or economics.

You want people to not go to college? You want people to just learn a trade on the job? Fine. You know what that will get you? A bunch of useful idiots. It basically will amount to a 9/12 rally. Don't teach people the ideas behind natural selection. Let them just because brick layers, welders, and electricians. You get what you pay for.

As for people wasting money in college? Sure. I have roomate that is paying $10,000 this quarter and she's taking two photo classes, a class called "death and dying," Beers of the World, and The History of Baseball. But just because she's a fucking idiot throwing her money away doesn't mean that a balanced education doesn't have any value to it, or that people shouldn't seek a college education.
For earning power after school, I think a fully ticketed electrician is going to do okay and get a better return on investment income than an MIT grad.

Quite a bit of the well rounded education that you want people to get is very easy for people to get on their free time. It would be better if everyone got it either on their own or at school but a lack of it is not going to hurt too many peoples earning power.


That's why I called them useful idiots. An electrician may be able wire a house or work in a factory wiring crap, but he'll never realize his full potential or do the things I spoke of if that is the only thing they do and the only thing they know.

I took a class called Tolstoy many moons ago. Sure, I could have gone to the book store and gotten the complete short stories, Tolstoy's diary, and War and Peace (I had already read Anna Karenina), but I would have lacked an immense amount of insight that I gained from those works in the classroom. Both from the professor, and from the different perspectives offered in the class. The tests, quizzes, and essays that I had to do also allowed me an opportunity to re-examine War and Peace. The insight that you can gain from a classroom lecture can be extremely meaningful and helpful. It can expand your education immensely. That's not to say that there isn't useless education out there. But there aren't a whole hell of a lot of classes that I've taken here at RIT that people could just...learn on their own in their spare time.

Business owners want people with college degrees for a reason. And it's not simply because they read a fucking book, or learned a bit a bit about economics on Wikipedia.

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 Post subject: Re: College
PostPosted: Tue Sep 15, 2009 7:26 pm 
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LittleWing wrote:
Nobody goes to MIT to read what you read in lit 101. The go to learn about calculus and calc based physics. They go to learn about differential equations and boundary value problems.

check the course offerings. every course, up to and including graduate courses, in each of the following disciplines is offered: anthropology, comparative media studies, foreign languages and literatures, history, linguistics and philosophy, literature, music and theater arts, political science, women's and gender studies, writing and humanistic studies, athletics, and physical education and recreation.

so, yes, in fact, some (very, very foolish) people do got to MIT to read what i read in lit 101.

LittleWing wrote:
That requirement serves as an addendum to your more important education and should be formulated to make you a more well rounded individual. It's meant to balance what you already know and apply it in a different fashion. My English classes are not the epicenter of my education, but they have provided me the foundation to basically ace every lab report and research paper that I've ever turned in. Education should be about balance.

i don't disagree. my point is that it isn't the case that the only place such "education" occurs is in college, and that such concepts are capable of being taught outside the conventional lecturer-pupil paradigm.

LittleWing wrote:
People need a well balanced education in order to be able to make informed decisions and solve problems. Most technicians are one dimensional in nature, and it's because none of them have taken any substantive classes in philosophy, mathematics, chemistry, physics. They haven't read anything, they don't know a thing about history, politics, or economics.

you're again conflating education - something i think is very, very valuable - with college. my point, again, is that it isn't the case that these things are only capable of being taught and absorbed inside a lecture hall at some accredited university. and given that reality, it's important to weigh the marginal costs associated with going to an expensive, renowned, and cloistered institution to acquire these skills versus going to an inexpensive, unknown, and less selective institution, or not going at all, or learning a trade/skill in lieu of formal education.

are these worthwhile skills? of course. is it in the interest of society for citizens to possess said skills? absolutely. but that doesn't mean that the cost of acquiring them should be disregarded, and that we should ignore that the service of purveying education has many, many substitutes.

LittleWing wrote:
You want people to not go to college? You want people to just learn a trade on the job? Fine. You know what that will get you? A bunch of useful idiots. It basically will amount to a 9/12 rally. Don't teach people the ideas behind natural selection. Let them just because brick layers, welders, and electricians. You get what you pay for.

college =/= education.

LittleWing wrote:
just because she's a fucking idiot throwing her money away doesn't mean that a balanced education doesn't have any value to it

college =/= education.

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