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 Post subject: Re: Blasphemy
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:33 am 
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Man in Black wrote:
stip wrote:
Today? There aren't many countries run by christian fundamentalists (remember, our argument is that the issue is fundamentalism).


But if you like

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Ant ... ality_Bill

However, they just dropped the death penalty provision from the bill, so I guess that's a start.

Imagine if these people had power

http://www.godhatesfags.com

And a few states filed amici curiae briefs in the Lawrence v Texas case upholding a states right to make homosexual sex a criminal act.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/914129/posts

The anti gay, anti reproductive rights, anti woman, anti science agenda of elements of the christian right in this country is terrifying. It is just fortunately not a majority position. But I do believe that if those groups had power they would quite quickly morph into the kind of horrid Islamic fundamentalism you are rightly decrying.

There's nothing in Christian scripture that prevents this sort of stuff from happening. We know that from history. The fundamentalist mindset will lead to certain types of behaviors, certain policies, understandings of individual autonomy, epistemological and moral certainty, etc. that is dangerous and anathema to a free society. Fortunately most western nations have strong enough liberal traditions to counter that. But it's nothing special about Christianity. It's the forces outside it that constrain it that are significant here.

And again, to be clear, I don't think all Christians are horrible fundamentalists in disguise, just as I don't think that about jews, muslims, etc. My argument is that the fundamentalist mindset and its political implications transcend particular regions boundaries. It's a fundamentalism problem, not a religious problem.


No, you're not getting my question, or more likely, you're avoiding it.

I linked to a study by an investigative reporter in Pakistan who is documenting killings in Pakistan for blasphemy. These executions are not sanctioned by any government body, they are against the law obviously. These are rogue elements carrying out executions in the name of Islam.

This type of thing is not what you'd call unusual in Islamic countries, unfortunately.

If "There's nothing in Christian scripture that prevents this sort of stuff from happening" and "The fundamentalist mindset will lead to certain types of behaviors", why are we not seeing extra judicial killings (other than by Obama's drone program, but that's another thread) by christians in the name of christianity?


today? or ever?

Ask a dead abortion clinic doctor

There is also this helpful wikipedia page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism

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 Post subject: Re: Blasphemy
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 3:52 am 
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I thought your original point regarded threats to the American court system posed by Islam vs. Christianity.

In which case, I would have to say Christianity poses a far more imposing threat than Islam.

If your original point regarded the more general question of blasphemy in courts and houses of law the world, then yes, I would certainly say Islam poses a far more imposing threat.

On that note, my organization just contributed to a major report on global blasphemy and speech-restricted laws. You might be correct that the extra-judicial killings in Pakistan are not sanctioned by the government, but there are currently a couple people on death row in Pakistan for blasphemy who would tell you their government is not exactly great on this issue.

http://www.centerforinquiry.net/news/cf ... _atheists/

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 Post subject: Re: Blasphemy
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 5:55 am 
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stip wrote:
Man in Black wrote:
stip wrote:
Today? There aren't many countries run by christian fundamentalists (remember, our argument is that the issue is fundamentalism).


But if you like

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uganda_Ant ... ality_Bill

However, they just dropped the death penalty provision from the bill, so I guess that's a start.

Imagine if these people had power

http://www.godhatesfags.com

And a few states filed amici curiae briefs in the Lawrence v Texas case upholding a states right to make homosexual sex a criminal act.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/914129/posts

The anti gay, anti reproductive rights, anti woman, anti science agenda of elements of the christian right in this country is terrifying. It is just fortunately not a majority position. But I do believe that if those groups had power they would quite quickly morph into the kind of horrid Islamic fundamentalism you are rightly decrying.

There's nothing in Christian scripture that prevents this sort of stuff from happening. We know that from history. The fundamentalist mindset will lead to certain types of behaviors, certain policies, understandings of individual autonomy, epistemological and moral certainty, etc. that is dangerous and anathema to a free society. Fortunately most western nations have strong enough liberal traditions to counter that. But it's nothing special about Christianity. It's the forces outside it that constrain it that are significant here.

And again, to be clear, I don't think all Christians are horrible fundamentalists in disguise, just as I don't think that about jews, muslims, etc. My argument is that the fundamentalist mindset and its political implications transcend particular regions boundaries. It's a fundamentalism problem, not a religious problem.


No, you're not getting my question, or more likely, you're avoiding it.

I linked to a study by an investigative reporter in Pakistan who is documenting killings in Pakistan for blasphemy. These executions are not sanctioned by any government body, they are against the law obviously. These are rogue elements carrying out executions in the name of Islam.

This type of thing is not what you'd call unusual in Islamic countries, unfortunately.

If "There's nothing in Christian scripture that prevents this sort of stuff from happening" and "The fundamentalist mindset will lead to certain types of behaviors", why are we not seeing extra judicial killings (other than by Obama's drone program, but that's another thread) by christians in the name of christianity?


today? or ever?

Ask a dead abortion clinic doctor

There is also this helpful wikipedia page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christian_terrorism


That wikipedia page is an embarrassing attempt at political correctness.
Please remind me of that the next time I use them as a reference.

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 Post subject: Re: Blasphemy
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2012 10:49 am 
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oh? Was there something in particular there you wanted to point out, because that sounds a lot like 'I have no response so I better discredit the messenger.'?

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 Post subject: Re: Blasphemy
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 10:43 am 
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stip wrote:
oh? Was there something in particular there you wanted to point out, because that sounds a lot like 'I have no response so I better discredit the messenger.'?


Breivik has stated that he is not particularly religious, the "christian" Europe he refers to is more of a cultural idea than a religious one.
He stated, rather specifically, that "christian fundamentalism" is NOT what he wanted for Europe (including a lone nut like this guy might tend to show that Wikipedia was a bit desperate for examples).

We can go through these one by one, if you like.

Even if you do accept these examples, there's a key difference with Islamic fundamentalism.

I'll let you think about it for a while.

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 Post subject: Re: Blasphemy
PostPosted: Sun Dec 23, 2012 12:27 pm 
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please do. I'd love to hear how these people are not a threat to the values of modern liberal enlightenment values.

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"Better the occasional faults of a Government that lives in a spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a Government frozen in the ice of its own indifference."--FDR

The perfect gift for certain occasions


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