Post subject: Re: Will California become America's first failed state?
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:55 pm
Supersonic
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:43 am Posts: 10694
It's great up until it suggests that green tech could save California and the economy. California is worse off for lots of reasons, and their crazy green energy and environmental policies are one of them.
Post subject: Re: Will California become America's first failed state?
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 2:58 pm
Former PJ Drummer
Joined: Fri Sep 15, 2006 11:00 am Posts: 16093 Location: dublin Gender: Male
Ok here's an idea bart, stop ghosting my posts and replying with cranky ass pointless replies. I don't wanna go off and hafta trawl through them for examples even though I wouldn't have far to look, but does that sound like a Deal? good. Hit the foe function there and I'll be of no further hinderance to your viewing or RM experience. Nice one pal.
this is a bit sad really. Good metaphor for the plight of US parklands I guess.
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Post subject: Re: Will California become America's first failed state?
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 3:20 pm
statistically insignificant
Joined: Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:19 pm Posts: 25134
dimejinky99 wrote:
Bart, you reply to every post I make almost with some sort of insult or abuse. I'd direct you to the same sticky.
dimejinky99 wrote:
Ok here's an idea bart, stop ghosting my posts and replying with cranky ass pointless replies. I don't wanna go off and hafta trawl through them for examples even though I wouldn't have far to look, but does that sound like a Deal?
LOL @ internet martyrdom.
I'm pretty sure there's no problem in California that banning the gun wouldn't solve, amirite dime?
Post subject: Re: Will California become America's first failed state?
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 7:46 pm
Administrator
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:51 pm Posts: 14534 Location: Mesa,AZ
punkdavid wrote:
Why is California's economy fucked? Two words: Proposition 13.
So... California's economy sucks because of too little tax revenues? I could see that argument being used as a reason why their state government is screwed, but their economy? Did lack of tax revenue cause their unemployment problem, or is it the other way around?
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Post subject: Re: Will California become America's first failed state?
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 8:38 pm
Unthought Known
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:54 am Posts: 7189 Location: CA
I'm pretty sure the exploding prison population and ever increasing public employees salaries (and public unions political clout)are more of a problem than Prop 13.
Post subject: Re: Will California become America's first failed state?
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 9:23 pm
Stone's Bitch
Joined: Wed Mar 01, 2006 8:33 am Posts: 35357 Location: Los Angeles, CA Gender: Male
simple schoolboy wrote:
I'm pretty sure the exploding prison population and ever increasing public employees salaries (and public unions political clout)are more of a problem than Prop 13.
THIS.
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Post subject: Re: Will California become America's first failed state?
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:13 pm
Of Counsel
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:14 am Posts: 37778 Location: OmaGOD!!! Gender: Male
$úñ_DëV|L wrote:
punkdavid wrote:
Why is California's economy fucked? Two words: Proposition 13.
So... California's economy sucks because of too little tax revenues? I could see that argument being used as a reason why their state government is screwed, but their economy? Did lack of tax revenue cause their unemployment problem, or is it the other way around?
It's not just tax revenue, it affects the real estate market. All real estate markets have ups and downs, but Prop 13 causes California's ups and downs to be more radical, so that when they had their boom, it was artificially large, and when they had their bust it was artificially large as well. Since homes are the single largest investment for most families, a housing bust affects the entire economy of an area, and in California it has been especially bad. The only states where it has been worse or comparable are all states that are experiencing unprecedented growth (Florida, Arizona, Nevada). California's growth has not been of the same scale as those states, and yet their housing bust has been just as severe because Prop 13 overly incentivizes sales in a hot market and the exact opposite in a cold one.
Also, when the state needs it most, money for social services dries up because such a huge percentage of tax revenue is tied directly to property values (and mill rates cannot be adjusted to compensate). And contrary to the beliefs of the uninformed, California does NOT have an especially high tax burden compared to other states. I posted a chart in the last year about it, but if memory serves, California is pretty much average among the states for total tax burden per capita. They could definitely stand to have some higher taxes if their state budget is as fucked as it is, and yet the legislature is handcuffed by Prop 13 to EVER do anything about it, whether times are good or bad.
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Post subject: Re: Will California become America's first failed state?
Posted: Tue Oct 06, 2009 10:34 pm
Unthought Known
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:47 pm Posts: 9282 Location: Atlanta Gender: Male
punkdavid wrote:
$úñ_DëV|L wrote:
punkdavid wrote:
Why is California's economy fucked? Two words: Proposition 13.
So... California's economy sucks because of too little tax revenues? I could see that argument being used as a reason why their state government is screwed, but their economy? Did lack of tax revenue cause their unemployment problem, or is it the other way around?
It's not just tax revenue, it affects the real estate market. All real estate markets have ups and downs, but Prop 13 causes California's ups and downs to be more radical, so that when they had their boom, it was artificially large, and when they had their bust it was artificially large as well. Since homes are the single largest investment for most families, a housing bust affects the entire economy of an area, and in California it has been especially bad. The only states where it has been worse or comparable are all states that are experiencing unprecedented growth (Florida, Arizona, Nevada). California's growth has not been of the same scale as those states, and yet their housing bust has been just as severe because Prop 13 overly incentivizes sales in a hot market and the exact opposite in a cold one.
Also, when the state needs it most, money for social services dries up because such a huge percentage of tax revenue is tied directly to property values (and mill rates cannot be adjusted to compensate). And contrary to the beliefs of the uninformed, California does NOT have an especially high tax burden compared to other states. I posted a chart in the last year about it, but if memory serves, California is pretty much average among the states for total tax burden per capita. They could definitely stand to have some higher taxes if their state budget is as fucked as it is, and yet the legislature is handcuffed by Prop 13 to EVER do anything about it, whether times are good or bad.
That is interesting, if the incentive was to avoid pricing older homeowners out of their houses why wouldn't they just go with exemptions like we do almost everywhere else?
If they know about these issues though shouldn't they budget for the valleys rather than the peaks?
I see this is a major issue in revenue, but spending should reflect that shouldn't it?
Post subject: Re: Will California become America's first failed state?
Posted: Wed Oct 07, 2009 12:07 am
Of Counsel
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 1:14 am Posts: 37778 Location: OmaGOD!!! Gender: Male
Electromatic wrote:
That is interesting, if the incentive was to avoid pricing older homeowners out of their houses why wouldn't they just go with exemptions like we do almost everywhere else?
You assume that the "incentive" is the same as what what the proponents of the amendment advertised it as. Perhaps even they had no idea all of the far reaching effects of this, but I think it's beyond dispute that they did understand that they were putting a cap on their property taxes, and property taxes are paid by the wealthier end of the economic spectrum. This was on eof the first massive tax limiting acts in the country, and it is an important piece of the puzzle that includes the Reagan/conservative ascendancy of the 1980's.
_________________ Unfortunately, at the Dawning of the Age of Aquarius, the Flower Children jerked off and went back to sleep.
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