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 Post subject: Re: Are you part of a Trade Union?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 9:47 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Are you part of a Trade Union?
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 11:39 pm 
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broken iris wrote:
Skitch Patterson wrote:
<snip>... so while this will weaken the overall power of the unions (ie less dues) I think it will force them to be more responsive to the needs and views of their members, because you can leave the union without leaving your job.


I'd like to believe that, but it seems like the current course in politics is to 'fire up the base' when fearing a loss of power, which tends to make people more entrenched in their old dogma versus adapting to the new reality. Good post, BTW.



Do you really think this has anything at all to do with making unions more responsive, what will benefit workers or businesses, or anything like that? This is entirely about political and economic power, and it makes sense for people affected to treat this like an act of war. That's precisely what it is.

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 Post subject: Re: Are you part of a Trade Union?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 1:40 pm 
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stip wrote:
broken iris wrote:
Skitch Patterson wrote:
<snip>... so while this will weaken the overall power of the unions (ie less dues) I think it will force them to be more responsive to the needs and views of their members, because you can leave the union without leaving your job.


I'd like to believe that, but it seems like the current course in politics is to 'fire up the base' when fearing a loss of power, which tends to make people more entrenched in their old dogma versus adapting to the new reality. Good post, BTW.



Do you really think this has anything at all to do with making unions more responsive, what will benefit workers or businesses, or anything like that? This is entirely about political and economic power, and it makes sense for people affected to treat this like an act of war. That's precisely what it is.



lol at stip sounding like generic, over dramatic union worker.


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 Post subject: Re: Are you part of a Trade Union?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:17 pm 
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Skitch Patterson wrote:
stip wrote:
broken iris wrote:
Skitch Patterson wrote:
<snip>... so while this will weaken the overall power of the unions (ie less dues) I think it will force them to be more responsive to the needs and views of their members, because you can leave the union without leaving your job.


I'd like to believe that, but it seems like the current course in politics is to 'fire up the base' when fearing a loss of power, which tends to make people more entrenched in their old dogma versus adapting to the new reality. Good post, BTW.



Do you really think this has anything at all to do with making unions more responsive, what will benefit workers or businesses, or anything like that? This is entirely about political and economic power, and it makes sense for people affected to treat this like an act of war. That's precisely what it is.



lol at stip sounding like generic, over dramatic union worker.


lol at skitch's political 'sophistication'

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 Post subject: Re: Are you part of a Trade Union?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:59 pm 
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stip wrote:
Skitch Patterson wrote:
stip wrote:
broken iris wrote:
Skitch Patterson wrote:
<snip>... so while this will weaken the overall power of the unions (ie less dues) I think it will force them to be more responsive to the needs and views of their members, because you can leave the union without leaving your job.


I'd like to believe that, but it seems like the current course in politics is to 'fire up the base' when fearing a loss of power, which tends to make people more entrenched in their old dogma versus adapting to the new reality. Good post, BTW.



Do you really think this has anything at all to do with making unions more responsive, what will benefit workers or businesses, or anything like that? This is entirely about political and economic power, and it makes sense for people affected to treat this like an act of war. That's precisely what it is.



lol at stip sounding like generic, over dramatic union worker.




lol at skitch's political 'sophistication'



This is something that has not ever been claimed.


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 Post subject: Re: Are you part of a Trade Union?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 7:55 pm 
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no, just heavily implied by your dismissive response

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 Post subject: Re: Are you part of a Trade Union?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 8:59 pm 
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stip wrote:
no, just heavily implied by your dismissive response



Wouldn't the existence of a heavy implication in a statement be somewhat politically sophisticated?


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 Post subject: Re: Are you part of a Trade Union?
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 11:06 pm 
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we're venturing into very meta territory here

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 Post subject: Re: Are you part of a Trade Union?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:18 am 
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stip wrote:
broken iris wrote:
Skitch Patterson wrote:
<snip>... so while this will weaken the overall power of the unions (ie less dues) I think it will force them to be more responsive to the needs and views of their members, because you can leave the union without leaving your job.


I'd like to believe that, but it seems like the current course in politics is to 'fire up the base' when fearing a loss of power, which tends to make people more entrenched in their old dogma versus adapting to the new reality. Good post, BTW.


Do you really think this has anything at all to do with making unions more responsive, what will benefit workers or businesses, or anything like that? This is entirely about political and economic power, and it makes sense for people affected to treat this like an act of war. That's precisely what it is.


I'd like to believe it will make unions adjust to modern times. And giving a worker the choice over whether or not to join a union is certainly not "war".

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 Post subject: Re: Are you part of a Trade Union?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:08 am 
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unions can't really function effectively if workers can decide whether or not they'd like to be a part of a union. There is a great deal of empirical evidence to back this up. This is a real severe blow not just to their political power, but their ability to take care of the needs of their members. It is an attempt to kill the unions, not make them lean or more efficient.


And all this is on top of the fact that the motivation to weaken unions has little to do with economic concerns (the broad evidence that exists seems to indicate that workers do better in unionized workplaces in terms of salary and benefits), and lots to do with helping to undermine an organizational weapon of the democratic party.


What does helping a union adjust to 'modern times' even mean?

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 Post subject: Re: Are you part of a Trade Union?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:11 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Are you part of a Trade Union?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:33 am 
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Some of you guys kill me.

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 Post subject: Re: Are you part of a Trade Union?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:35 am 
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thodoks wrote:
Some of you guys kill me.

Well, we are union people.

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I don't belong to a union.

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 Post subject: Re: Are you part of a Trade Union?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:50 am 
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stip wrote:
What does helping a union adjust to 'modern times' even mean?
Personally I think this type law goes to far, but then again so did extorting unions dues that went beyond what was required for basic contract representation. If unions want to be an organizational wing for a political party they should be funded on voluntary contributions not a forced and taxpayer funded form of donation.


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 Post subject: Re: Are you part of a Trade Union?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 11:55 am 
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interestingly enough, many unions supported citizens united for the same reasons corporations did.

Tyler, I agree with you, but I would want to see that kind of legislation A: be national and B: be tied to similar legislation that imposed similar restrictions upon corporations.

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 Post subject: Re: Are you part of a Trade Union?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 12:10 pm 
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Unions can't function unless they force everyone to join it.

Well, that sounds "fair."

Do your statistics on union wages and salaries include all of the industries and businesses that unions have destroyed?

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 Post subject: Re: Are you part of a Trade Union?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:31 pm 
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tyler wrote:
stip wrote:
What does helping a union adjust to 'modern times' even mean?
Personally I think this type law goes to far, but then again so did extorting unions dues that went beyond what was required for basic contract representation. If unions want to be an organizational wing for a political party they should be funded on voluntary contributions not a forced and taxpayer funded form of donation.



Yep. I have a huge problem with the situations that you are required to be in, that have absolutely no obligation to provide you with quality service. A good example of this is the DMV/Secretary of State office. If you're there you HAVE to be there. Every service provided by them is exclusive to them, and as a result, the service is horrific. You are required 100% to play be their rules, and they can be as surly and unresponsive as they want, and you have no recourse.

And the Unions are a similar situation. To work in a specific place, you must join the Union. As a result, you must donate to them in the form of dues.. and you have no recourse on what those dues go to. Ask yourself this....What if your union decided to start pushing pro life candidates, or anti gay marriage initiatives? What if your money was being used to support causes you are steadfastly opposed to? Why should that put the onus on you to find another job?

There is no question this will weaken the Unions financially, and therefore politically. But should the Unions be so active politically? A law like this doesn't change the relationship between the government and employees, or even the employers and the employees. It just changes the relationship between the Union and the employees. Another note regarding the Michigan law is that it doesn't limit, or even change the ability of the Unions to collectively bargain like the Wisconsin issues did.


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 Post subject: Re: Are you part of a Trade Union?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 2:15 pm 
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stip wrote:
unions can't really function effectively if workers can decide whether or not they'd like to be a part of a union. There is a great deal of empirical evidence to back this up. This is a real severe blow not just to their political power, but their ability to take care of the needs of their members. It is an attempt to kill the unions, not make them lean or more efficient.


If the union provides a real benefit to the worker, then why wouldn't the worker would choose the union. It's only in the situation where the value-add in being a union member is doubtful that choice becomes a threat to the union. And if a worker decides the union is not acting in their interests, what alternatives do they have if there is no 'right to work'? There's also the whole 'Freedom of Association' thing.

stip wrote:
And all this is on top of the fact that the motivation to weaken unions has little to do with economic concerns (the broad evidence that exists seems to indicate that workers do better in unionized workplaces in terms of salary and benefits), and lots to do with helping to undermine an organizational weapon of the democratic party.


I agree that the motivation here has a lot to do with politics or our awful two-party system, but doesn't this mean that anyone who wants a job where a union exists would be forced to become a sponsor of the Democratic party? Surely people shouldn't be forced into particular politic beliefs to provide food to their kids.

stip wrote:
What does helping a union adjust to 'modern times' even mean?


Speaking from an outsiders perspective, they appear, again from an outside perspective as I claim no actual special insight into their inner-workings, to be fighting for an outmoded way of doing business. We have foreign car companies opening up factories in the South because of favorable business conditions there (a lower paying non-union job vs. no job), we have easy imports from overseas, and 3D printers are going to eliminate almost all of the fine-skill work that humans do and probably eventually eliminate the much of the imports as well (sorry, dock workers unions). Globalization is reality. Technological progress is reality. Every other industry from Finance to Programming to Construction is dealing with this and stomping your foot or passing laws to protect unions is not going to stop it. The unions need to make the people more valuable to the employer than the tech or outsourcing, or no employer will choose the people without a gun to their head. Or in this case, thugs at their child's soccer game.

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Last edited by broken iris on Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Are you part of a Trade Union?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:12 pm 
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thodoks wrote:
Some of you guys kill me.
I'm curious as to your general opinion on unions.


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 Post subject: Re: Are you part of a Trade Union?
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:59 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
thodoks wrote:
Some of you guys kill me.
I'm curious as to your general opinion on unions.


Does thodoks have opinions? Or does he just post dismissive comments?

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