Red Mosquito • View topic - Define American (Immigration & DREAM Act)

cutuphalfdead · **Posted:** Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:45 pm

Green Habit wrote:

cutuphalfdead wrote:

Green Habit wrote:

Skitch Patterson wrote:

It very well may be an acceptable price. BUT (jesus, you are gonna walk me right into the skitch is a racist thing again) if MLK had written an article whining "During the whole sit in, I was so worried i was gonna get arrested!" i probably wouldnt have felt bad for him either.

I agree with Skitch on this. If you commit a crime, you must be willing to do the time--even if you think the law is unjust. Your most effective path would then be to further demonstrate your principles based upon your time in court/prison.

It's not really the same thing when the original crime was committed not by you, but on your behalf as a 12 year old.

He actively avoided the laws for several years after that, though.

Well sure, but the laws he broke were only to maintain his livelihood after the initial crime was committed, which he had no real part in. He was put in a situation as a child that made him a criminal, and had no other real choice but to continue breaking laws so as not to be punished for the original crime.

Mickey · **Posted:** Wed Jun 29, 2011 4:51 pm

Skitch Patterson wrote:

Just because he was talented and successful doesn't mean he should get away with it.

Wait, what? Dude, I'm kind of mortgaging my future on this idea.

Kosmicjelli · **Posted:** Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:02 pm

What about all these fuckers who have robbed the world in "White collar" crimes. Working loopholes and the like. They should do time too. Im sorry. There should be an ideaology concerning knowingly manipulating law and its interpetation. WTF? When you take the bar excam it says sign here you now work for the devil getting schmucks off the hook? I mean there is no justice. Hyper inflating a stock market for you own personal gain while people are starving and then pay fuckin people to kill them even more in the name of 'power and greed" is absolfuckinglutely unconcionable.

Skitch Patterson · **Posted:** Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:04 pm

Green Habit wrote:

Part of me almost thinks that he wants to get deported so he can be the poster child for all this absurdity.

this is my problem most of all with him. He really seems like someone who wants to be a martyr.

Green Habit · **Posted:** Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:36 pm

Kosmicjelli wrote:

What about all these fuckers who have robbed the world in "White collar" crimes. Working loopholes and the like. They should do time too. Im sorry. There should be an ideaology concerning knowingly manipulating law and its interpetation. WTF? When you take the bar excam it says sign here you now work for the devil getting schmucks off the hook? I mean there is no justice. Hyper inflating a stock market for you own personal gain while people are starving and then pay fuckin people to kill them even more in the name of 'power and greed" is absolfuckinglutely unconcionable.

What does this have to do with Vargas, or even immigration in general?

Skitch Patterson · **Posted:** Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:43 pm

cutuphalfdead wrote:

Green Habit wrote:

cutuphalfdead wrote:

Green Habit wrote:

Skitch Patterson wrote:

It very well may be an acceptable price. BUT (jesus, you are gonna walk me right into the skitch is a racist thing again) if MLK had written an article whining "During the whole sit in, I was so worried i was gonna get arrested!" i probably wouldnt have felt bad for him either.

I agree with Skitch on this. If you commit a crime, you must be willing to do the time--even if you think the law is unjust. Your most effective path would then be to further demonstrate your principles based upon your time in court/prison.

It's not really the same thing when the original crime was committed not by you, but on your behalf as a 12 year old.

He actively avoided the laws for several years after that, though.

Well sure, but the laws he broke were only to maintain his livelihood after the initial crime was committed, which he had no real part in. He was put in a situation as a child that made him a criminal, and had no other real choice but to continue breaking laws so as not to be punished for the original crime.

"punished" is a strong word here. Its not like he was going to be sent to immigrant prison. He would have- at worst- been returned to the country of which he was a citizen. Even if he had waited until 22 he would have gotten a free high school and college education in the US. He then could have spent his ten years abroad and petition to come back. Instead he spent the next 8 years lying, forging documents and circumventing the law in whatever way served him.

cutuphalfdead · **Posted:** Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:49 pm

Skitch Patterson wrote:

cutuphalfdead wrote:

Green Habit wrote:

cutuphalfdead wrote:

Green Habit wrote:

Skitch Patterson wrote:

It very well may be an acceptable price. BUT (jesus, you are gonna walk me right into the skitch is a racist thing again) if MLK had written an article whining "During the whole sit in, I was so worried i was gonna get arrested!" i probably wouldnt have felt bad for him either.

I agree with Skitch on this. If you commit a crime, you must be willing to do the time--even if you think the law is unjust. Your most effective path would then be to further demonstrate your principles based upon your time in court/prison.

It's not really the same thing when the original crime was committed not by you, but on your behalf as a 12 year old.

He actively avoided the laws for several years after that, though.

Well sure, but the laws he broke were only to maintain his livelihood after the initial crime was committed, which he had no real part in. He was put in a situation as a child that made him a criminal, and had no other real choice but to continue breaking laws so as not to be punished for the original crime.

"punished" is a strong word here. Its not like he was going to be sent to immigrant prison. He would have- at worst- been returned to the country of which he was a citizen. Even if he had waited until 22 he would have gotten a free high school and college education in the US. He then could have spent his ten years abroad and petition to come back. Instead he spent the next 8 years lying, forging documents and circumventing the law in whatever way served him.

You don't think being sent to live in a third world country when you've lived through your adolescence and into your adulthood in America isn't a punishment?

thodoks · **Joined:** Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:19 pm **Posts:** 25134

We should just absolve everyone who's ever stolen from, robbed, or defrauded another to support a drug habit because drug laws are fundamentally unjust.

Skitch Patterson · **Posted:** Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:54 pm

cutuphalfdead wrote:

Skitch Patterson wrote:

cutuphalfdead wrote:

Green Habit wrote:

cutuphalfdead wrote:

Green Habit wrote:

Skitch Patterson wrote:

It very well may be an acceptable price. BUT (jesus, you are gonna walk me right into the skitch is a racist thing again) if MLK had written an article whining "During the whole sit in, I was so worried i was gonna get arrested!" i probably wouldnt have felt bad for him either.

I agree with Skitch on this. If you commit a crime, you must be willing to do the time--even if you think the law is unjust. Your most effective path would then be to further demonstrate your principles based upon your time in court/prison.

It's not really the same thing when the original crime was committed not by you, but on your behalf as a 12 year old.

He actively avoided the laws for several years after that, though.

Well sure, but the laws he broke were only to maintain his livelihood after the initial crime was committed, which he had no real part in. He was put in a situation as a child that made him a criminal, and had no other real choice but to continue breaking laws so as not to be punished for the original crime.

"punished" is a strong word here. Its not like he was going to be sent to immigrant prison. He would have- at worst- been returned to the country of which he was a citizen. Even if he had waited until 22 he would have gotten a free high school and college education in the US. He then could have spent his ten years abroad and petition to come back. Instead he spent the next 8 years lying, forging documents and circumventing the law in whatever way served him.

You don't think being sent to live in a third world country when you've lived through your adolescence and into your adulthood in America isn't a punishment?

No. Its not. First of all, its not as though they even attempted to get this kid in legally at any point. And its not as though they hadn't had plenty of success in legally entering the country in the past either. Him, and his family, based on his own version of events were just lazy in the process of getting him in and keeping him here.

and life is not punishment, CHUD. thousands of families lost their home cause they could not afford them any longer, should we let them live in a house they cant afford just so they dont feel punished?

cutuphalfdead · **Posted:** Wed Jun 29, 2011 5:59 pm

thodoks wrote:

We should just absolve everyone who's ever stolen from, robbed, or defrauded another to support a drug habit because drug laws are fundamentally unjust.

I never said that. I just said it's reasonable to sympathize with someone even though they are actively breaking laws.

cutuphalfdead · **Posted:** Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:02 pm

Skitch Patterson wrote:

Him, and his family, based on his own version of events were just lazy in the process of getting him in and keeping him here.

His family was, he wasn't. He was 12.

4/5 · **Posted:** Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:03 pm

thodoks wrote:

We should just absolve everyone who's ever stolen from, robbed, or defrauded another to support a drug habit because drug laws are fundamentally unjust.

Comparing apples to elephants?

Skitch Patterson · **Posted:** Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:05 pm

cutuphalfdead wrote:

Skitch Patterson wrote:

Him, and his family, based on his own version of events were just lazy in the process of getting him in and keeping him here.

His family was, he wasn't. He was 12.

and if my dad was a doctor i wouldnt have student loans.

The actions of our parents, and our relatives when we are kids impacts the life of each and every one of us. Lets not pretend this is something that just impacts him. The fact he wasn't actively involved in the decision doesn't absolve him of the fact he didn't rectify it as soon as he was able.

thodoks · **Joined:** Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:19 pm **Posts:** 25134

cutuphalfdead wrote:

thodoks wrote:

We should just absolve everyone who's ever stolen from, robbed, or defrauded another to support a drug habit because drug laws are fundamentally unjust.

I never said that. I just said it's reasonable to sympathize with someone even though they are actively breaking laws.

Sympathy is fine. But this issue - to me, at least - is about whether you support the rule of law, not about whether any particular law is unjust. The law doesn't exist so that we can pick and choose when - and for whose interests - it will be enforced.

thodoks · **Joined:** Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:19 pm **Posts:** 25134

4/5 wrote:

thodoks wrote:

We should just absolve everyone who's ever stolen from, robbed, or defrauded another to support a drug habit because drug laws are fundamentally unjust.

Comparing apples to elephants?

Is this about the elephant in the room thread?

4/5 · **Posted:** Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:10 pm

Skitch Patterson wrote:

cutuphalfdead wrote:

Skitch Patterson wrote:

Him, and his family, based on his own version of events were just lazy in the process of getting him in and keeping him here.

His family was, he wasn't. He was 12.

and if my dad was a doctor i wouldnt have student loans.

The actions of our parents, and our relatives when we are kids impacts the life of each and every one of us. Lets not pretend this is something that just impacts him. The fact he wasn't actively involved in the decision doesn't absolve him of the fact he didn't rectify it as soon as he was able.

What do you believe was the rational course for him to take?

cutuphalfdead · **Posted:** Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:11 pm

thodoks wrote:

cutuphalfdead wrote:

thodoks wrote:

We should just absolve everyone who's ever stolen from, robbed, or defrauded another to support a drug habit because drug laws are fundamentally unjust.

I never said that. I just said it's reasonable to sympathize with someone even though they are actively breaking laws.

Sympathy is fine. But this issue - to me, at least - is about whether you support the rule of law, not about whether any particular law is unjust. The law doesn't exist so that we can pick and choose when - and for whose interests - it will be enforced.

Well yeah, I wasn't really arguing whether the law should be applied or not. I just find it very easy to sympathize with the guy despite the fact that he continued to break laws into his adulthood. Skitch came off as completely dismissive of the actual situation simply because laws were broken. That's all I took issue with.

cutuphalfdead · **Posted:** Wed Jun 29, 2011 6:11 pm

And I think any reasonable person in this guy's shoes would have acted the same exact way.

thodoks · **Joined:** Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:19 pm **Posts:** 25134

4/5 wrote:

Skitch Patterson wrote:

cutuphalfdead wrote:

Skitch Patterson wrote:

Him, and his family, based on his own version of events were just lazy in the process of getting him in and keeping him here.

His family was, he wasn't. He was 12.

and if my dad was a doctor i wouldnt have student loans.

The actions of our parents, and our relatives when we are kids impacts the life of each and every one of us. Lets not pretend this is something that just impacts him. The fact he wasn't actively involved in the decision doesn't absolve him of the fact he didn't rectify it as soon as he was able.

What do you believe was the rational course for him to take?

Probably to do exactly as he did.

thodoks · **Joined:** Mon Jan 21, 2008 10:19 pm **Posts:** 25134

cutuphalfdead wrote:

thodoks wrote:

cutuphalfdead wrote:

thodoks wrote:

We should just absolve everyone who's ever stolen from, robbed, or defrauded another to support a drug habit because drug laws are fundamentally unjust.

I never said that. I just said it's reasonable to sympathize with someone even though they are actively breaking laws.

Sympathy is fine. But this issue - to me, at least - is about whether you support the rule of law, not about whether any particular law is unjust. The law doesn't exist so that we can pick and choose when - and for whose interests - it will be enforced.

Well yeah, I wasn't really arguing whether the law should be applied or not. I just find it very easy to sympathize with the guy despite the fact that he continued to break laws into his adulthood. Skitch came off as completely dismissive of the actual situation simply because laws were broken. That's all I took issue with.

Fair enough.

For the record, I too have sympathy for the position the guy's in. He seems like a swell fellow, and the type of guy I'd gladly share a country with. Like so many, he's a victim of terrible policy. But he shouldn't expect to not have to pay the piper for compounding his position with more and more illegal behavior.

Define American (Immigration & DREAM Act)

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