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 Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:35 am 
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 Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 1:37 am 
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corduroy_blazer wrote:
Are you willing to argue that Obama's economic policies are similar to those of the Bush administration?

You're not?

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 Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: Wed Nov 30, 2011 2:19 am 
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Liberal internationalism where feasible, combined with pragmatism regarding the conflicts we're already involved in and expanded counterterrorism operations, doesn't qualify as neo-conservatism, I don't think. Neo-conservatives set out to change the world and had a faith in the ability of American power to do so in fundamental ways, and specifically in the ability of American military power. The rhetoric was blunt: You're either with us or against us. The Obama approach, while at times militaristic and certainly not afraid of intervention, is more hesitant, more calculating, more realistic about what can and can't be done. Much like the neo-conservative approach, and unlike the approach of Kissinger and Nixon, it doesn't separate itself from ethical concerns. But it balances means and ends much more carefully than the Bush (term 1) approach, including using institutions, cooperating with other countries, and looking past force and bluntness, attempting to use persuasion instead. Persuasion, of course, is used to further our interests (some of which include stopping bloodshed for the sake of stopping bloodshed), and the countries who adopt the norms we're pushing do so selectively (Saudi Arabia condemning Qaddafi's actions while sending troops into Bahrain to put down protests), in large part to further their interests in one way or another (putting sanctions on Syria, for instance, weakens a key Iranian ally).

Here's a couple sentences where I hope to clarify and summarize whatever I said above, but will ultimately fail: The Obama approach is far less confident in American power (it's not like the Bush administration wanted to nation build in Iraq--they thought they could go in, take out Saddam, and hand power back to the Iraqis). A corollary to that is that the Obama approach looks to further what it sees as American interests (including economic stability, less genocide, democracy most places; ie the same as Clinton and Bush saw) through diplomacy (including public diplomacy), through the strategic use of institutions, and the use of more targeted force against specific individuals and organizations seen as a (potential) terror threat.

To be honest, this approach isn't much different from the Bush term two approach. The real outlier is Bush term one. Wolfowitz and Rumsfeld were gone by term two, and Gates had become an important player in the administration. I'm not sure how much that shift affected the change in approach, but it certainly represented a change in approach.

I don't know what that has to do with this thread.

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 Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: Fri Dec 02, 2011 9:15 pm 
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Man in Black wrote:
given2trade wrote:
I'm fine with the government helping the poor, redistributing my wealth, and running social programs.


Why?

This is what they've done with that responsibility, thus far:

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So the government only began helping the poor, redistributing wealth, and running social programs in late 2007?

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 Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 2:22 am 
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corduroy_blazer wrote:
Man in Black wrote:
given2trade wrote:
I'm fine with the government helping the poor, redistributing my wealth, and running social programs.


Why?

This is what they've done with that responsibility, thus far:

Image

So the government only began helping the poor, redistributing wealth, and running social programs in late 2007?


trend 
noun
1. the general course or prevailing tendency

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 Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: Sat Dec 03, 2011 4:16 am 
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A trend that would only matter, given your argument, if the government only began helping the poor, redistributing wealth, and running social programs in late 2007. Which is clearly not true.

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 Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 2:12 pm 
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corduroy_blazer wrote:
A trend that would only matter, given your argument, if the government only began helping the poor, redistributing wealth, and running social programs in late 2007. Which is clearly not true.



I've noticed that the poor that are helped don't seem to ever become a state that isn't poor. Are they just not very good at helping?

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 Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 3:58 pm 
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are they still doing this?

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 Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: Mon Dec 05, 2011 4:52 pm 
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Electromatic wrote:
corduroy_blazer wrote:
A trend that would only matter, given your argument, if the government only began helping the poor, redistributing wealth, and running social programs in late 2007. Which is clearly not true.



I've noticed that the poor that are helped don't seem to ever become a state that isn't poor. Are they just not very good at helping?

Check out the poverty rate for the elderly before and since Social Security was introduced.

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 Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 1:32 pm 
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Who knew UC Davis had such a retarded student body?

I love all the designer clothing and backpacks on display here.

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 Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 2:51 pm 
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These days, even 'vagabond couture' is expensive at half the price.

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 Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:08 pm 
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LittleWing wrote:
I love all the designer clothing and backpacks on display here.

b/c this has anything to do w/ anything.

honestly, this just raises more questions for me about the polices' procedures:

i don't understand how the police allowed themselves to be surrounded in the first place. why were the initial perps seated on the walkway? they had enough officers to create a column to their vehicles/exit, why not plan on it? the 13 minute mark shows pretty clearly that they could have made a column down the walk way to clear out the "standing" protesters and (seen from previous video) the officers would have been able to step over the seated students (the students actually move slightly so as not to be step on).

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 Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:15 pm 
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EllisEamos wrote:
LittleWing wrote:
I love all the designer clothing and backpacks on display here.

b/c this has anything to do w/ anything.




It has plenty to do with it. How can you credibly protest against corporate america when you actively support it?


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 Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:16 pm 
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Skitch Patterson wrote:
How can you credibly protest against corporate america when you actively support it?


Entitlements.

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 Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 3:49 pm 
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Skitch Patterson wrote:
EllisEamos wrote:
LittleWing wrote:
I love all the designer clothing and backpacks on display here.

b/c this has anything to do w/ anything.




It has plenty to do with it. How can you credibly protest against corporate america when you actively support it?

are they protesting corporate america?

i thought they were protesting wall street gamblers and big banks.

and fat cats. :wink:

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 Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:41 pm 
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Nobody knows what they're protesting!!! That's the problem!!!

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 Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:49 pm 
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Owl_Farmer wrote:
Nobody knows what they're protesting!!! That's the problem!!!

no, i'd say its pretty clear w/ a name like occupy wall street.

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 Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:53 pm 
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EllisEamos wrote:
LittleWing wrote:
I love all the designer clothing and backpacks on display here.

b/c this has anything to do w/ anything.

honestly, this just raises more questions for me about the polices' procedures:

i don't understand how the police allowed themselves to be surrounded in the first place. why were the initial perps seated on the walkway? they had enough officers to create a column to their vehicles/exit, why not plan on it? the 13 minute mark shows pretty clearly that they could have made a column down the walk way to clear out the "standing" protesters and (seen from previous video) the officers would have been able to step over the seated students (the students actually move slightly so as not to be step on).


How can you protest high tuition costs while you're walking around in designer clothes? I mean, it's not just a few people, it's pretty much everybody.

You ask these questions about the police because you don't know anything about how police officers operate or why they went about their business in the way they did that day. It's pretty stupid to say, "they should have planned on it." That's like saying that football coach can accurately plan for everything an opposing coach will throw at him. Plan it. That is dumbfuckery at its finest. Police officers plan on things that have a legitimate chance of happening. I don't think while that brainstorming, "well what if they students actively surround us" or "we should form two massive columns to clear out everywhere we walk," was on the list of high percentage possibilities. Cops don't have to "accurately plan" for anything beyond the most obvious scenarios because they have protocols in place regarding escalation of force should things not go according to plan.

This is all a matter of escalation of force. The police knew they were being watched the entire time, and they knew they were going to get YouTube'd if anything happened. As a result, the took the most passive approach possible which resulted in the creation of the circle. To NOT allow it to happen would have actually been a questionable increase in the escalation of force.

It is IMPOSSIBLE to predict what the "sitting students" would do when "stepped over." We already went over this. The police function in a manner that reduces the amount of contact they will have with a group of people. The police also function in a manner that reduces the chances of getting themselves hurt and putting themselves at risk. They needed to mitigate the chance of escalation as much as possible with so many people around. It's easy for things to get out of hand: IE: Oakland OWS.

You use something like pepper spray in this situation because it incapacitates those who are breaking the law without having to handle them on a one by one basis. It reduces the chance of harm to the protester, as well as to the police officer. You don't step over the douchebags because all it takes is ONE PERSON to grab a leg and trip a police officer for all hell to break loose.

You should become a police chief. You'd clearly be a pro at it.

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Last edited by LittleWing on Sat Dec 10, 2011 5:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:54 pm 
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EllisEamos wrote:
Owl_Farmer wrote:
Nobody knows what they're protesting!!! That's the problem!!!

no, i'd say its pretty clear w/ a name like occupy wall street.


Which is stupid in and of itself. It should be occupy Washington. But that's not as hip, nor as cool. I really hope I get a new Ipad for Christmas.

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 Post subject: Re: Occupy Wall Street
PostPosted: Sat Dec 10, 2011 4:55 pm 
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Welp, Occupy Boston is over.

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