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 Post subject: Re: Trayvon Martin shooting
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 8:15 pm 
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Orpheus wrote:
What difference does it make that he had weed in his system?

I love how nobody really puts themselves in Trayvon's shoes. Some random dude starts following you when you're not doing anything wrong, wouldn't that put you on edge? What if he thought he was being mugged?


A surprisingly small number people don't attempt to flee when someone is following them at night, especially if they are fearful for their safety.

EllisEamos wrote:
he took it upon himself to continue to follow the kid despite being told his services were no longer needed.


This why the whole self-defense thing is really not a valid defense, unless you believe his story that he got out of the car to get a house number to give to the police.

EllisEamos wrote:
he took it upon himself to approach the kid.
he took it upon himself to use deadly force once he was unable to restrain the kid w/ his hands.


This is not what Mr Zimmerman claims happened.

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 Post subject: Re: Trayvon Martin shooting
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 8:26 pm 
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it seems like entrapment to me.

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 Post subject: Re: Trayvon Martin shooting
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 8:40 pm 
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EllisEamos wrote:
it seems like entrapment to me.

speaking of entrapment, i'm gonna go talk to that girl about her vagina

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 Post subject: Re: Trayvon Martin shooting
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 8:41 pm 
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homersheineken wrote:
warehouse wrote:
broken iris wrote:
Developments:

Trayvon had pot in his system during fight
Two witnesses corroborate Zimmerman was getting his ass kicked when the shooting occurred, as does medical evidence.

how much pot did he have in his system?


Not much. It wouldn't be enough to show anything other than that he had pot in his system.

then who gives a shit? i actually wish he had more pot in his system, he probably would have leaned more toward the "flight" rather than the "fight" and would still be alive.

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 Post subject: Re: Trayvon Martin shooting
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 8:54 pm 
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warehouse wrote:
EllisEamos wrote:
it seems like entrapment to me.

speaking of entrapment, i'm gonna go talk to that girl about her vagina


Catherine Zeta Jones?

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 Post subject: Re: Trayvon Martin shooting
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 10:18 pm 
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warehouse wrote:
then who gives a shit? i actually wish he had more pot in his system, he probably would have leaned more toward the "flight" rather than the "fight" and would still be alive.


The presence of an illegal drug in his system, while he was out on suspension for possession of the very same drug, can be used to impugn his character and paint him as a run of the mill thug. The only chance for a conviction here is that manslaughter will be seen a compromise between acquittal (what any other defendant would get) and the unprovable and absurd murder 2 charge.

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 Post subject: Re: Trayvon Martin shooting
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 10:39 pm 
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broken iris wrote:
warehouse wrote:
then who gives a shit? i actually wish he had more pot in his system, he probably would have leaned more toward the "flight" rather than the "fight" and would still be alive.


The presence of an illegal drug in his system, while he was out on suspension for possession of the very same drug, can be used to impugn his character and paint him as a run of the mill thug. The only chance for a conviction here is that manslaughter will be seen a compromise between acquittal (what any other defendant would get) and the unprovable and absurd murder 2 charge.


There is ZERO chance of conviction here. The physical evidence is the only evidence besides "he said she said". And it totally corroborates Zimmerman's story. Sadly, it's irrelevant if Zimmerman is a moron and shouldn't have been following Trayvon around.

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 Post subject: Re: Trayvon Martin shooting
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 10:51 pm 
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does the outcome of this trial help or hurt the Stand Your Ground law?

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 Post subject: Re: Trayvon Martin shooting
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 11:15 pm 
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The only fact I really care about in this case is that a kid is dead for no reason. Fucking sickening.

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 Post subject: Re: Trayvon Martin shooting
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 11:17 pm 
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As far as I can tell, he died because he was beating the shit out of a guy with a gun.

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 Post subject: Re: Trayvon Martin shooting
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 11:17 pm 
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also, people die all the time. get over yourself. kid should have been carrying his own piece. i mean, how un-thug can he be?

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 Post subject: Re: Trayvon Martin shooting
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 11:37 pm 
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Orpheus wrote:
The only fact I really care about in this case is that a kid is dead for no reason. Fucking sickening.


No reason? I'd save your indignation for those like Kelly Thomas.


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 Post subject: Re: Trayvon Martin shooting
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 11:39 pm 
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theplatypus wrote:
As far as I can tell, he died because he was beating the shit out of a guy with a gun.


Who followed him, when he wasn't doing anything wrong, even after the 911 dispatcher told him specifically not to do that. This situation began when Zimmerman took it upon himself to leave his car, armed, and start following someone he knew nothing about.

What's sad is that if this is a white kid, this probably never happens. How are young black males supposed to react to this story with anything other than the feeling that their lives have very little value to a large part of society?

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 Post subject: Re: Trayvon Martin shooting
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 11:46 pm 
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Uh. When you see someone following you, is your first instinct "BEAT THE SHIT OUT OF THAT PERSON"?

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 Post subject: Re: Trayvon Martin shooting
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 11:54 pm 
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No, but I also don't know many people who get into a physical altercation if unprovoked. We only have Zimmerman's version of the events and the eyewitness reports are contradictory. Zimmerman states that Martin confronted him, but we don't know if that's the truth.

Look, I'm not saying Trayvon Martin is a saint. But he shouldn't have died that night, and the genesis of the incident is not him confronting Zimmerman, it's Zimmerman deciding to follow him (while armed) after the police specifically told him not to do that.

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 Post subject: Re: Trayvon Martin shooting
PostPosted: Fri May 18, 2012 11:59 pm 
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Orpheus wrote:
No, but I also don't know many people who get into a physical altercation if unprovoked. We only have Zimmerman's version of the events and the eyewitness reports are contradictory. Zimmerman states that Martin confronted him, but we don't know if that's the truth.

Look, I'm not saying Trayvon Martin is a saint. But he shouldn't have died that night, and the genesis of the incident is not him confronting Zimmerman, it's Zimmerman deciding to follow him (while armed) after the police specifically told him not to do that.

Zimmerman following Martin may have been the genesis of the incident, but Martin confronting Zimmerman was the catalyst.


The kid didn't deserve to die- no question about it. But this seems like a case of a lot of bad circumstances, and bad decisions all coming together. That doesn't absolve Zimmerman, but it shouldn't condemn him either.


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 Post subject: Re: Trayvon Martin shooting
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 12:29 am 
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That's what I'm saying though, we don't know exactly how that confrontation took place.

Zimmerman's account:

Quote:
Zimmerman told the dispatcher that Martin was "coming to check me out," then he commented that Martin "ran." [10] While still on the phone with the dispatcher, Zimmerman parked his vehicle and followed Martin on foot.[136] Confirming that Zimmerman was following Martin, the dispatcher said, "OK, we don't need you to do that." Zimmerman replied with "OK" and stated that Martin got away. [10] The call ended, and Zimmerman told investigators he was returning to his vehicle, when Martin approached him from his left rear and confronted him.[136][137] According to Zimmerman's father, Martin asked Zimmerman, "Do you have a fucking problem?" Zimmerman replied "No, I don't have a problem", and while Zimmerman reached for his cell phone Martin said, "Well, you do now" or something similar,[126][137] then punched him in the face, knocking him down, and began beating his head against the sidewalk.[136][137] Zimmerman said he called out for help while being beaten, and at one point Martin covered his mouth to muffle the screams.[136][137] According to Zimmerman's father, during the struggle while Martin was on top of Zimmerman, Martin saw the gun his son was carrying and said something to the effect of “You’re gonna die now” or “You’re gonna die tonight” and continued to beat Zimmerman.[126] Zimmerman and Martin struggled over the gun, and Zimmerman shot Martin once in the chest at close range, in self-defense.


Pretty much everything after the call is questionable. From what I have read no one saw the beginning of the confrontation, and no one knows what was said. It's also interesting to me that while everyone knows Martin had THC in his system, no such screening was ever done on Zimmerman that night to determine if he was under the influence of alcohol or other drugs.

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 Post subject: Re: Trayvon Martin shooting
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 12:34 am 
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Orpheus wrote:
Pretty much everything after the call is questionable. From what I have read no one saw the beginning of the confrontation, and no one knows what was said.



Questionable is reasonable doubt... which means he should not be found guilty.


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 Post subject: Re: Trayvon Martin shooting
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 12:39 am 
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Oh, I should have made it clear that I don't think he'll be found guilty or should be. I have just been extremely bothered by some of the attitudes I've seen regarding Martin--that he somehow deserved it or that he was the cause of it. "Just another thug," that sort of thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Trayvon Martin shooting
PostPosted: Sat May 19, 2012 12:41 am 
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Orpheus wrote:
Oh, I should have made it clear that I don't think he'll be found guilty or should be. I have just been extremely bothered by some of the attitudes I've seen regarding Martin--that he somehow deserved it or that he was the cause of it. "Just another thug," that sort of thing.



I'm not sure thats a result of people actually reacting that way to him.. I think it's more of a backlash to how the story was initially reported (the picture of him as a 12 year old for example).


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