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 Post subject: Freedom
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 1:11 pm 
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After reading this article below, I thought that this would be a good question to ask the forum: How do you interpret freedom? Clearly, most if not all people in the "free world", so to speak, subscribe to the broad notion of freedom, but there are obviously widely varying views of what it is.

http://volokh.com/2012/03/27/freedom-and-hypocrisy/

Freedom and Hypocrisy
Eugene Volokh • March 27, 2012 7:06 pm

Those conservative hypocrites! Here they oppose the individual mandate in the name of “freedom,” and yet then they turn around and vote against a woman’s freedom to choose abortion. So argued a liberal professor on a discussion list I’m on, and I’ve heard lots of liberals make the same arguments.

Those liberal hypocrites! Here they argue for sexual liberty in the name of “freedom,” and yet they support freedom-restricting gun controls. So argue plenty of conservatives (and some libertarians), including on this blog.

Those libertarian hypocrites! Here they talk about how people should have freedom, and yet they are just fine with big corporations constraining employees’ and consumers’ freedom. So argue still other people.

I’m quite skeptical of all these claims of hypocrisy, because they ignore the reality that many people sincerely and plausibly have different understandings of “freedom.” No-one really thinks that everyone should be free to do whatever they please. To everyone, “freedom” means freedom to do those things that don’t sufficiently harm others (and often also means freedom from constraint imposed by particular actors, such as government using the threat of legal action, and not other actors, such as churches using moral or spiritual sanctions).

And that judgment necessarily requires making contested moral and pragmatic decisions: What, as a moral matter, constitutes “harm”? (Does paying someone a low wage for their work count as harming them? How about discriminating against them in various transactions? Interfering with their business relations? Libeling them? Alienating their spouses’ affections?) What, as a practical matter, causes such “harm”? (Does legal private gun possession really cause more crime and injury than would be present if guns were prohibited?) When can avoiding some kinds of harm justify restrictions on people’s freedom? Who counts as “others” who should be protected against “harm.” (Fetuses? Animals?) Well-intentioned people can easily answer these questions differently than we would; and that they answer them differently doesn’t mean that they’re hypocrites.


Now one can certainly argue that people who believe in the freedom to do X should also believe in the freedom to do Y because of this-and-such similarity and because the supposed differences are actually overstated for this-and-such reason. But claims of hypocrisy are more than just claims of honest error. They are claims that people are consciously pretending to be for freedom when they know they are actually against it — claims of dishonesty.

Occasionally, such claims of conscious pretense are supported with actual evidence, but usually they aren’t: The view often seems to be “those people must be lying when they say they are for freedom,” even when there is no evidence for this beyond the fact that those people have a different understanding of the boundaries of freedom than the speaker does. (Something similar happens with regard to constitutional debates, where people often claim that someone is hypocritical for interpreting two provisions differently, without at all considering the possibility that there is an honest disagreement about how the provisions are to be interpreted.)

So such accusations of hypocrisy are factually unsupported. And such unsupported accusations of hypocrisy, as with all unsupported accusations that the other side is consciously dishonest or morally corrupt, are also destructive of helpful public debate. They may energize one’s base, but they make it much harder to persuade people who are leaning towards the other side, and I suspect that they also alienate the middle as well. Instead of substantive discussion of how we should understand freedom, we get accusations of deception, accusations that don’t really advance understanding. I’d much rather see more arguments that recognize that they stem from honest disagreement, and fewer claims that the other side is just a bunch of hypocrites.

UPDATE: A commenter writes, “What about people who are against racial discrimination, but for the affirmative action? People who say that life begins at conception (and therefore against all ‘after’ contraception), but allow for rape exception?” My suggestion — when faced with such situations, each of us should ask ourselves: Can I think of reasons why decent people might distinguish (even if not fully persuasively in my view) affirmative action from various other forms of discrimination, or abortion in rape cases from abortion in other cases? If not, can I think a little more, since there almost always are such reasonable distinctions (again, even if not fully persuasive ones)? And if I can think of those distinctions, why should we assume that our adversaries actually aren’t thinking of them, too, and are instead being hypocrites?


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 Post subject: Re: Freedom
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:07 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Freedom
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:11 pm 
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That was certainly better than the cliched Braveheart picture that I thought would come.


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 Post subject: Re: Freedom
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 2:18 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
That was certainly better than the cliched Braveheart picture that I thought would come.


i generally try to create my own cliches to run into the ground.



I was especially happy to bring "juggalo baby funeral" out the other day.


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 Post subject: Re: Freedom
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:44 pm 
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I've always been more sympathetic to the argument for "freedom" as an economic means, not a philosophical end.

Most of my conservative friends reflexively play the "freedom" card to defend whatever conservative position it is they happen to be taking, as though the philosophical superiority of the notion is apparent and trumps all other practical concerns. I think that's why I've always shied away from philosophical debates: in the first case, I'm not sure the notion of "freedom" is philosophically superior to alternative arrangements, and in the second case, those who dismiss most philosophical arguments do so in the name of pragmatism. But I'm fairly well-convinced that the economic environment that "freedom" cultivates is far more likely to produce for those who find themselves in such a society a certain threshold of economic security and socioeconomic mobility. That is, the practical and pragmatic arguments for a free society are far more persuasive than are the philosophical arguments.

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 Post subject: Re: Freedom
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:47 pm 
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Also, if you're looking for anything approaching intellectual honesty, coherence, or consistency in the punditry and academic worlds, you're doing it wrong.

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 Post subject: Re: Freedom
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 4:50 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: Freedom
PostPosted: Wed Mar 28, 2012 6:40 pm 
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Goddamn it, dkfan.

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 Post subject: Re: Freedom
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:13 pm 
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See: Bill of Rights


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 Post subject: Re: Freedom
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 9:38 pm 
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flags are waving

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 Post subject: Re: Freedom
PostPosted: Sun Apr 01, 2012 10:29 pm 
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Aliveguy1 wrote:
See: Bill of Rights


Don't pay too much attention to this one, its just boiler plate:

10th Amendment wrote:
The powers not delegated to the United States by the Constitution, nor prohibited by it to the States, are reserved to the States respectively, or to the people.


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 Post subject: Re: Freedom
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:32 pm 
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thodoks wrote:
I've always been more sympathetic to the argument for "freedom" as an economic means, not a philosophical end.

Most of my conservative friends reflexively play the "freedom" card to defend whatever conservative position it is they happen to be taking, as though the philosophical superiority of the notion is apparent and trumps all other practical concerns. I think that's why I've always shied away from philosophical debates: in the first case, I'm not sure the notion of "freedom" is philosophically superior to alternative arrangements, and in the second case, those who dismiss most philosophical arguments do so in the name of pragmatism. But I'm fairly well-convinced that the economic environment that "freedom" cultivates is far more likely to produce for those who find themselves in such a society a certain threshold of economic security and socioeconomic mobility. That is, the practical and pragmatic arguments for a free society are far more persuasive than are the philosophical arguments.
I meant to reply to this earlier, but didn't get around to that until just now.

Can you really frame all freedoms that one would advocate through an economic means? Freedom of speech and expression is the one area that is immediately difficult for me to view through that lens. You don't need to consume or produce scarce resources to think and express that thought.


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 Post subject: Re: Freedom
PostPosted: Sun Apr 15, 2012 10:39 pm 
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all i know is that fat pig on his motorcycle yesterday had no right to give me a no seatbelt ticket!

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 Post subject: Re: Freedom
PostPosted: Mon Apr 16, 2012 4:28 pm 
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