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 Post subject: Dutch politics
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:17 pm 
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Hi,

I just wonder what you know about it, and if you have any opinions. Personally, I am more than glad that the current scum who call themselves government, had to resign earlier this week. A lot of bad things might still be prevented now.

groetjes,
Mirella :)

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 Post subject: Re: Dutch politics
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 3:48 pm 
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Is there more background you could provide on why the current/former government is scum?


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 Post subject: Re: Dutch politics
PostPosted: Wed Apr 25, 2012 6:09 pm 
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They twisted and turned and did not have any principles just to stay in power as long as possible. I can respect the will to change things, but everything they changed and wanted to change was bad, *in my opinion*. The 'liberals' and 'Christians' formed a coalition, that could only work with support, because they were a minority after the last elections. They got that support from our 'anti-Islam' party. That way, they managed to rush into several things that pleases their voters: driving faster on the highways, less animal protection laws, more fun for hunters, as many highways as possible through nature just to laugh at the 'smelly lefties' who are trying to protect that valuable and scarce space (this is a country with not much space and many people), cutting on all long term values like education and art, and breaking down the last remains of our social backbone. Forced labor for the poor (a growing group, we even have food banks now with shortages), less money for the disabled, and bigger salaries and bonuses and tax reduction for the rich (them). Being mean to countries in need like Greece or the developing countries, and embarrassing us in most other international affairs. Like the visit of the Turkish prime minister last week. Relentlessly making the lives of immigrants horrible, and throwing many out to unsafe countries, or just accepting that they commit suicide. Wanting to cut on basics, while investing in stupid airplanes. This may seem a bit black and white, but I guess you get the idea.
Now, they tried to make new plans for seven weeks, and concluded they could not work it out. They blamed the anti-Islam party. So all it cost was time and lots of money. There will be new elections, but because of summer recess, that will be as late as September. They leave the country in a mess, but personally I am glad they did not get the chance to make it an even bigger mess.

groetjes,
Mirella :)

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 Post subject: Re: Dutch politics
PostPosted: Sat Apr 28, 2012 11:59 pm 
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Err, no offense, but it isn't those policies that destroyed the Netherlands. It was wrecked before they took office and for the exact same reasons that Greece, Spain, and Portugal are broken - due to policies that it would appear you support.

All of those programs are great - if you can afford it and if they are sustainable. They're ruinous if they exist simply because you feel they must.

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 Post subject: Re: Dutch politics
PostPosted: Sun Apr 29, 2012 11:25 pm 
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I would think you would want to each party to pay for their share separately, not lump it all together.

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 Post subject: Re: Dutch politics
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:00 am 
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For your information: the politicians I support (SP) have not been in power yet. The last 'leftist' government we had was many years ago, and things still went pretty well back then. In fact, it is their good things that are destroyed by the current and previous administrations. Maybe you can elaborate on what you mean with the past politics, and why you lump us in with the southern European countries that are run completely different. The Dutch, like Denmark, always took pride in paying lots of taxes and having none or little corruption, and a well balanced financial household. We also used to see ourselves as an example country for human rights, social issues and environmental and technical science and practice. An exporting country. Sadly, the past few governments have treated all those good things as 'problems' and instead of being there for the citizens who pay them, they spent all those years in thinking of ways to make the lives of individuals and groups miserable. What are your information sources?

groetjes,
Mirella :)

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 Post subject: Re: Dutch politics
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:06 am 
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Oh, and after my initial post a lot has happened. There has been a new cooperation of several parties (leaving several other big ones out) that have forced some measurements to at least make enough cuts (they say) to keep us within the 3% range that Europe requires. They are raising the high vat rate from 19 to 21%, raising pension age (it was 65) and some more things. So, for now some sort of optimism has taken the place of the initial chaos, and let's see what the elections in September will bring.

groetjes,
Mirella :)

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 Post subject: Re: Dutch politics
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 12:28 pm 
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Mirella wrote:
They are raising the high vat rate from 19 to 21%
There's a high VAT rate, as opposed to a low VAT rate? If so, how does that work?


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 Post subject: Re: Dutch politics
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 4:04 pm 
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Basic needs, like bread and vegetables, are in the low rate of 6%. Also a lot of other things, like plants, and certain types of labor, like hair dressers (I believe, it changes sometimes). Almost everything else has 19% rate. Wikipedia knows it all :). I see that Belgium already uses 21%.

Quote:
The European Union value added tax (EU VAT) is a value added tax encompassing member states in the European Union VAT area. Joining in this is compulsory for member states of the European Union. As a consumption tax, the EU VAT taxes the consumption of goods and services in the EU VAT area. The EU VAT's key issue asks where the supply and consumption occurs thereby determining which member state will collect the VAT and which VAT rate will be charged.

Each Member State's national VAT legislation must comply with the provisions of EU VAT law as set out in Directive 2006/112/EC. This Directive sets out the basic framework for EU VAT, but does allow Member States some degree of flexibility in implementation of VAT legislation. For example different rates of VAT are allowed in different EU member states. However Directive 2006/112 requires Member states to have a minimum standard rate of VAT of 15% and one or two reduced rates not to be below 5%. Some Member States have a 0% VAT rate on certain supplies- these Member States would have agreed this as part of their EU Accession Treaty (for example, newspapers and certain magazines in Belgium). The current maximum rate in operation in the EU is 27% (Hungary), though member states are free to set higher rates.

VAT that is charged by a business and paid by its customers is known as "output VAT" (that is, VAT on its output supplies). VAT that is paid by a business to other businesses on the supplies that it receives is known as "input VAT" (that is, VAT on its input supplies). A business is generally able to recover input VAT to the extent that the input VAT is attributable to (that is, used to make) its taxable outputs. Input VAT is recovered by setting it against the output VAT for which the business is required to account to the government, or, if there is an excess, by claiming a repayment from the government.

The VAT Directive (prior to 1 January 2007 referred to as the Sixth VAT Directive) requires certain goods and services to be exempt from VAT (for example, postal services, medical care, lending, insurance, betting), and certain other goods and services to be exempt from VAT but subject to the ability of an EU member state to opt to charge VAT on those supplies (such as land and certain financial services). Input VAT that is attributable to exempt supplies is not recoverable, although a business can increase its prices so the customer effectively bears the cost of the 'sticking' VAT (the effective rate will be lower than the headline rate and depend on the balance between previously taxed input and labour at the exempt stage).


groetjes,
Mirella :)

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 Post subject: Re: Dutch politics
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 6:12 pm 
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Ah, I thought you were talking about a Dutch VAT. My mistake. I hate VATs, by the way--too regressive of a tax for my tastes.


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 Post subject: Re: Dutch politics
PostPosted: Mon Apr 30, 2012 11:19 pm 
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I dunno, this seems to contradict what you said. The Netherlands was spending more on social programs than both Denmark and Sweden. Your tax contributions and government spending as a percentage of GDP are nearly as high as those nations, and were never higher.

http://www.cbs.nl/en-GB/menu/themas/mac ... 800-wm.htm

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 Post subject: Re: Dutch politics
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 8:15 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
Ah, I thought you were talking about a Dutch VAT. My mistake. I hate VATs, by the way--too regressive of a tax for my tastes.


It is Dutch, but within the European boundaries. And I agree with that 'regressive' statement above. I don't hate them, but there should not be a 'punishment' on buying. Maybe the luxury things only, so the government can make some money of it, but this is a lot of added money to prices, all paid by the end users, us.

groetjes,
Mirella :)

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 Post subject: Re: Dutch politics
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 8:22 pm 
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LittleWing wrote:
I dunno, this seems to contradict what you said. The Netherlands was spending more on social programs than both Denmark and Sweden. Your tax contributions and government spending as a percentage of GDP are nearly as high as those nations, and were never higher.

http://www.cbs.nl/en-GB/menu/themas/mac ... 800-wm.htm


It is more the way it is all divided, or not shared. Spending is still high, but what you get for it is all less. They also included the health insurance, which has rocketed here the past few years. So now, you pay much more but when you need to see a doctor, it costs you money on top of it. Not even long ago, you just paid something for the insurance and that was it. Same with unemployment, social services, and old age: you pay more and get less for it. Or nothing at all, sometimes. And I was comparing the Netherlands with those countries, because we have more similarities with them than with Spain, Portugal, Italy, or Greece. We have a lot in common with Germany as well. For some subjects I would not mind if regulation was European instead of national.

groetjes,
Mirella :)

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 Post subject: Re: Dutch politics
PostPosted: Tue May 01, 2012 11:02 pm 
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Okay, let's go another route. In what ways do you think that you are more like the Scandinavians and Germany, and less like Greece and Spain? In terms of warm fuzzy thoughts about the purpose of government, what measurable differences are there between the vast majority of all European nations? It would seem to me that really, on those in Luxembourg and Switzerland diverge from the European model in a meaningful way. Like, do the warm fuzzy thoughts between left leaning Greece differ from the left leaning warm fuzzy thoughts of Italy, France, Portugal, Norway, or Finland?

I would argue - not really. In theory and at the heart, the benevolent intentions are the same. The hopes, wishes, and the dreams of the benevolent welfare state are equal.

The difference is in its sustainability. To that end, it would seem that your nation is more like the Southern European nations in that you cannot sustain your lofty welfare state. Your nation isn't producing what is required to keep it thriving without falling into your own Greek moment. In lieu of falling into a Greek black hole, your politicians have made MODEST adjustments to your living style. Without making these adjustments your nation would be moving faster towards a Greek moment and financial insolvency. It's nice to have a welfare state, but it's disastrous if it's not economically sound. The Scandinavians and to a lesser extent the Germans have a sustainable model. And when these countries need a haircut they share in it equally. They don't point fingers at the rich and expect the rich to bear the brunt of the burden simply because "they can afford it."

Really now, to the economic end, how are you different than the southern European nations? You all have bloated welfare states, some are just managed better than others. Yours isn't managed. Yours in a state, just like the southern nations, of perpetual "stimulus" driven by debt, in the hopes and dreams that someday empowering the consumer class will cure your deficit problems. It's a dream, and it's killing your continent and gutting it out for all to see.

Be careful what you wish for. What you want would just drive your country to ruin faster.

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 Post subject: Re: Dutch politics
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 7:40 pm 
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I really wonder where you got your information. The Dutch were the inventors of stock exchange, for instance. We are an exporting country and produce lots more than we consume, so that is not a problem. It is also not only goods, we have well educated people so the services export is there as well. The Netherlands is still a rich country, so my only 'complaint' is the way the wealth is shared. Our welfare state is not managed? It is, but too much. If they just keep it simple, it can all be much cheaper. But instead, they wasted a lot of money the past years on all kinds of repressive and individually controlling rules, or on mega offices for the corporate managers that went way over budget.
There are multiple ways to stimulate economy. Spending money is one of them, no matter if you agree or not. I agree, they should handle the debt situation and take good care of the tax payers money. But unfortunately the past years people voted for the people who couldn't care less. You blame the welfare state, and call that a dream. I believe in dreams and in making them true. Or keeping them. Nightmares do not last forever either :). Also, I think it is worth fighting for existing achievements to keep the good, instead of destroying it all and starting from scratch. That's is wasting.

groetjes,
Mirella :)

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 Post subject: Re: Dutch politics
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 7:45 pm 
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oh, and this is rather old now, but things haven't changed much: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/europe/8036097.stm#start (net by population).

groetjes,
Mirella :)

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 Post subject: Re: Dutch politics
PostPosted: Sat May 05, 2012 7:52 pm 
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Man, groetjes is not pronounced the way I always thought it was.

http://www.forvo.com/word/groetjes/

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 Post subject: Re: Dutch politics
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 10:09 am 
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Haha, it differs per area, if that is any comfort ;). How did you think it would be pronounced?

groetjes,
Mirella :)

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 Post subject: Re: Dutch politics
PostPosted: Sun May 06, 2012 10:14 am 
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And the Dutch unemployment rate is only 5%*, so that is another good reason to not lump us in with the countries around the Mediterranean sea.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... yment_rate

groetjes,
Mirella :)

* even though you can doubt the numbers since the way they are measured varies per country.

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 Post subject: Re: Dutch politics
PostPosted: Mon May 07, 2012 1:51 am 
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Mirella wrote:
Haha, it differs per area, if that is any comfort ;). How did you think it would be pronounced?

groetjes,
Mirella :)

I always said:


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