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 Post subject: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:46 pm 
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This is reference to the revolutionary wave and violent uprisings in the Middle East, starting with Egypt a year and a half ago to Syria today.

I am fascinated by all of this. I have no idea what will happen or where it will go. I have a lot of catching up to do, a lot of opinions to read.

Anyway, does anyone have any idea what this will all lead to 10 years down the road? 50? 100?


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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:56 pm 
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I'm pretty sure this thread exists as the Egypt or Libya thread.

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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 6:59 pm 
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Not really, no. I'm not going to Egypt to discuss Syria.


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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Thu Jul 19, 2012 7:06 pm 
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I was hoping this was going to be about bottled water.

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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 11:13 am 
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So this is working out really well for us.

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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:35 pm 
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Rebar wrote:
So this is working out really well for us.



If the goal was perpetual war, then yes.
If the goal was to demonstrate that not all cultures are compatible with democracy, then yes.
If the goal was to weaken the United States so that a global culture (government) could rise, then yes.

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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:40 pm 
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broken iris wrote:
Rebar wrote:
So this is working out really well for us.



If the goal was perpetual war, then yes.
If the goal was to demonstrate that not all cultures are compatible with democracy, then yes.
If the goal was to weaken the United States so that a global culture (government) could rise, then yes.


:roll:

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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:52 pm 
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stip wrote:
broken iris wrote:
Rebar wrote:
So this is working out really well for us.



If the goal was perpetual war, then yes.
If the goal was to demonstrate that not all cultures are compatible with democracy, then yes.
If the goal was to weaken the United States so that a global culture (government) could rise, then yes.


:roll:


I am not suggesting Islam itself is incompatible with democracy, just not as it exists amongst large swaths of the mostly uneducated, low income voting population in the ME. A "Islamic Reformation" must lead the establishment of democracy, not the other way around, or you will get codified religious fundamentalism.

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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 1:53 pm 
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a slightly longer, but still real quick response since i am heading off to class

Democratic transitions are messy and take time. It took the United States three iterations and a civil war, numerous riots, rebellions, bloodshed, murder, and 70+ years to work the kinks out. It is going to be even harder in an area where the secular political traditions and organizations were largely suppressed by strongmen supported by the democratic west. Democratic politics requires strong civil organizations, and in many of these countries the only game in town is currently religious ones. Of course those groups will dominate right now (either in terms of electoral politics or in terms of general social influence). They're often the only game in town. That doesn't mean that there aren't other traditions and groups that can be encouraged, developed, or built. But they're not there yet. Expecting them to be fully functioning, fully stable democracies within a year or two is nuts.

Of course it is also possible that these countries may democratically CHOOSE to be religiously conservative (as many parts of our country unfortunately choose). That doesn't make them undemocratic. It may not make them allies, and it won't make them philosophically liberal (which sucks), but I'm much more concerned about those trends and tendencies at home.

I have no idea what the third point you're making is.

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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:08 pm 
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I was kind of hoping that the young web and facebook generation (that helped mobilize the Egypt protest) had some kind of influence in the political and social transgressions. I guess that's wishing too much, but will the young generations in the middle east have a more democratic outlook 20 years from now?


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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:21 pm 
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Not if the younger arab generation associate some stupid YouTube movie with the American Government and then proceeds to riot and act stupid.

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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:25 pm 
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Good point.

It's offical, I hate the world.


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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:32 pm 
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I Hail Randy Moss wrote:
This is reference to the revolutionary wave and violent uprisings in the Middle East, starting with Egypt a year and a half ago to Syria today.

I am fascinated by all of this. I have no idea what will happen or where it will go. I have a lot of catching up to do, a lot of opinions to read.

Anyway, does anyone have any idea what this will all lead to 10 years down the road? 50? 100?


Image

Image


Image

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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:46 pm 
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hell on earth

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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 7:48 pm 
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Alex wrote:
hell on earth

I just said that

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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:02 pm 
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*reed


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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Thu Sep 13, 2012 8:20 pm 
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malice wrote:
Alex wrote:
hell on earth

I just said that

Image

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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:33 am 
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Rebar wrote:
Not if the younger arab generation associate some stupid YouTube movie with the American Government and then proceeds to riot and act stupid.


completely unlike, for instance, the way our country clearly disassociates the actions of Islamic extremists and Muslims in general.

I wasn't aware the younger arab generation was rioting as a unit, by the way.

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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:41 am 
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stip wrote:
a slightly longer, but still real quick response since i am heading off to class

Democratic transitions are messy and take time. It took the United States three iterations and a civil war, numerous riots, rebellions, bloodshed, murder, and 70+ years to work the kinks out. It is going to be even harder in an area where the secular political traditions and organizations were largely suppressed by strongmen supported by the democratic west. Democratic politics requires strong civil organizations, and in many of these countries the only game in town is currently religious ones. Of course those groups will dominate right now (either in terms of electoral politics or in terms of general social influence). They're often the only game in town. That doesn't mean that there aren't other traditions and groups that can be encouraged, developed, or built. But they're not there yet. Expecting them to be fully functioning, fully stable democracies within a year or two is nuts.

Of course it is also possible that these countries may democratically CHOOSE to be religiously conservative (as many parts of our country unfortunately choose). That doesn't make them undemocratic. It may not make them allies, and it won't make them philosophically liberal (which sucks), but I'm much more concerned about those trends and tendencies at home.


Yeah, so you are right, I was wrong. Technically, democracy is nothing more than people voting.

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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Fri Sep 14, 2012 12:58 am 
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stip wrote:
Rebar wrote:
Not if the younger arab generation associate some stupid YouTube movie with the American Government and then proceeds to riot and act stupid.


completely unlike, for instance, the way our country clearly disassociates the actions of Islamic extremists and Muslims in general.


This is a silly point since both can be true and not diminish the generalization Rebar made. Plus the number of ignorant Americans suicide bombing police trainees because they disagree with the government is pretty low. Hint, hint,Iraq.

stip wrote:
I wasn't aware the younger arab generation was rioting as a unit, by the way.


I wasn't aware all Americans were biased against Muslims. I mean I had hoped for it, so this is great news, I just wasn't aware.

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