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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:26 am 
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I thought the case for our intervention in Libya was that our NATO allies couldn't seal the deal so we jumped in to prevent the world from realizing that NATO is nothing without US AWACS/ satellites/ armaments/ money. Sounds reminiscent of Kosovo, no?


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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 7:51 am 
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simple schoolboy wrote:
I thought the case for our intervention in Libya was that our NATO allies couldn't seal the deal so we jumped in to prevent the world from realizing that NATO is nothing without US AWACS/ satellites/ armaments/ money. Sounds reminiscent of Kosovo, no?

if the US hadn't intervened, i doubt any intervention would've happened in the first place

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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 11:34 am 
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what are you planning on doing after you graduate, dkfan?

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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 12:12 pm 
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http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one ... age,29553/

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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 2:27 pm 
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the Feds are gonna try to pin anything they can on this guy who made the film. disgusting.

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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:06 pm 
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stip wrote:
what are you planning on doing after you graduate, dkfan?

i finished school last spring. still figuring that out, though.

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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Sat Sep 15, 2012 8:08 pm 
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Man in Black wrote:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/

:lol:

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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 2:09 am 
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dkfan9 wrote:
Man in Black wrote:
http://www.theonion.com/articles/no-one-murdered-because-of-this-image,29553/

:lol:


yeah, I'm gonna use that in class.

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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Sun Sep 16, 2012 4:36 pm 
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stip wrote:
Well it is certainly true that we need to accept that the democracies that emerge from these countries may be more religiously oriented than hours, but you are also certainly downgrading the potential for modern pluralist democracies in these countries, in part because all the post WWI modern communication technologies, etc. make it harder to maintain a closed religious theocracy. What those regions need is time and support for civil organizations to grow and mature and offer a countervailing presence to religious conservatism. They may not be successful, obviously. But it's a bit early to call the experiment a failure.


First, I would say that China has proven modern technology does not undercut a powerful state, but actually reinforces it if that state is disproportionally powerful relative to it's people (thanks Cisco!) and China does not have the benefit of superstition based ignorance to achieve it. Secondly, I think you are making a distinction between religious Islam with political Islam when it's not clear if that separation really exists for non-Western educated Muslims (outside of college dissertations). I have not conducted a survey, but it is my opinion, that most Muslims simply want what they perceive is a just world, where they are free to live as they want. What I am not sure about is that after decades of oppression with nothing more than their faith to get them through, the people of the Arab Spring countries won't just swap a bearded dictator in a military uniform for an imaginary one in the clouds.*

*I base these opinions solely on American media and internet based reading, so I welcome other sources of knowledge.


From the hot bed of radical extremism Sydney, Australia:

Image
Image

“They call us the terrorists? But everyone is terrorizing our people!”-Sarah Jacob, Australian protestor

Poor little white girl living at the peak of modern civilization in one of the most beautiful cities on Earth. Life must be so f*cking awful for you. :shake:

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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Mon Sep 17, 2012 3:10 am 
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broken iris wrote:
stip wrote:
Well it is certainly true that we need to accept that the democracies that emerge from these countries may be more religiously oriented than hours, but you are also certainly downgrading the potential for modern pluralist democracies in these countries, in part because all the post WWI modern communication technologies, etc. make it harder to maintain a closed religious theocracy. What those regions need is time and support for civil organizations to grow and mature and offer a countervailing presence to religious conservatism. They may not be successful, obviously. But it's a bit early to call the experiment a failure.


First, I would say that China has proven modern technology does not undercut a powerful state, but actually reinforces it if that state is disproportionally powerful relative to it's people (thanks Cisco!) and China does not have the benefit of superstition based ignorance to achieve it. Secondly, I think you are making a distinction between religious Islam with political Islam when it's not clear if that separation really exists for non-Western educated Muslims (outside of college dissertations).


Well China certainly proves it doesn't have to, anyway.

I do think that distinction exists. Do you really think every muslim yearns for a theocracy? Also, I do like your not so subtle shot at academics--that people who study this professionally are less qualified to make a judgement here than you.




broken iris wrote:
I have not conducted a survey, but it is my opinion, that most Muslims simply want what they perceive is a just world, where they are free to live as they want. What I am not sure about is that after decades of oppression with nothing more than their faith to get them through, the people of the Arab Spring countries won't just swap a bearded dictator in a military uniform for an imaginary one in the clouds.*

*I base these opinions solely on American media and internet based reading, so I welcome other sources of knowledge.


Do you? Just a few sentences ago you seemed pretty down on them.

you may be right, although I don't think you need to phrase this like they will be grasping for utopia. Depending on the degree of breakdown of civil society in the absence of the former regimes people are often likely to, despite what they would prefer, support who can deliver them peace and stability. In the short term the religious groups are better organized to do that. We'll have to see if that short term advantage hardens into a 'here comes the new boss/worse than the old boss' authoritarian politics, or if it is a stopping point on the way to something better. Certainly any regime that emerges is going to be exceedingly fragile.

[/quote]

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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Tue Sep 18, 2012 11:34 am 
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Stip, I will respond to your post since I realize that I was not as clear as I should have been, but I am not going to google references to political Islam until I get some time at home.

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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Mon Sep 24, 2012 8:05 pm 
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Two things:

Why I find Libya so damn interesting

Quote:
(Reuters) - Hundreds of pro-government protesters stormed the headquarters of the main Islamist militia group in Libya's eastern city of Benghazi on Friday, Reuters witnesses said.

Chanting "Libya, Libya", the demonstrators pulled down flags of the Ansar Al-Sharia militia and torched a vehicle inside the base. There was no sign of resistance from the militia.

Earlier, protesters entered a separate compound belonging to the militia.



Also, on Syria, here is a recently declassified report on the uprising and Hama massacre in 1982. Striking similarities to today, and also many differences. The report's short, but if you'd like a shorter version, go here.

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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Tue Sep 25, 2012 4:58 am 
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Was the original Libya reporting inaccurate in that it portrayed France and Britain as gung ho and the US as a more reluctant partner in the campaign? Weren't we insistent on limiting our involvement to primarily support activities?

But yeah, it is nice to have middle east riots occuring in our interests for once. Probably the only time it'll happen though.


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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 3:30 am 
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Eric Posner on free speech and the "Innocence of Muslims" kerfuffle.

http://www.slate.com/articles/news_and_politics/jurisprudence/2012/09/the_vile_anti_muslim_video_and_the_first_amendment_does_the_u_s_overvalue_free_speech_.html

I like his politics less than those of his father's.


Last edited by simple schoolboy on Wed Sep 26, 2012 5:00 am, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Wed Sep 26, 2012 4:33 am 
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simple schoolboy wrote:
Was the original Libya reporting inaccurate in that it portrayed France and Britain as gung ho and the US as a more reluctant partner in the campaign? Weren't we insistent on limiting our involvement to primarily support activities?

But yeah, it is nice to have middle east riots occuring in our interests for once. Probably the only time it'll happen though.

I'm 100% on that. I think it's probably that the US was reluctant and got assurances of military burden-sharing in order to intervene, but that key US players were very engaged with the rebels diplomatically.

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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 9:26 am 
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On Islamists in Libya, circa spring 2011 (during our intervention)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tw-5s5FjrGE&feature=related

I don't recall running across this fellow Michael Scheuer before. Starting at 0:49 . How prescient.

Full disclosure: I am a sucker for contrarians.

TL; DR: Bengazi is (and was) full of Islamists, some with ties to militant actions in Iraq and elsewhere.


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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Thu Sep 27, 2012 10:05 am 
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So now Iran is claiming the Arab spring as something that will grow and grow, and we will all one day be free of, well whatever it is that confines us.


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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Fri Nov 09, 2012 7:10 pm 
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http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2012 ... picks=true

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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Sat Nov 10, 2012 3:49 pm 
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Owl_Farmer wrote:
http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2012/11/syria-in-ruins/100402/?google_editors_picks=true


Horrible. It's a problem without a solution.

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 Post subject: Re: The Arab Spring
PostPosted: Tue Dec 04, 2012 4:54 pm 
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http://news.yahoo.com/anna-wintour-reportedly-obama-short-list-us-ambassador-154255146--abc-news-politics.html

I was disappointed that the article speculating about Anna Wintour's possible ambasadorship neglected to include her well publisized admiration for the Assad family. As far as dictators go they are some classy real down to earth folks.


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