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 Post subject: Re: The Limits of Humor
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:16 pm 
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Kevin Davis wrote:
cutuphalfdead wrote:
No girl gets raped one night and then goes to see Daniel Tosh do standup the very next day.


Eh, you don't know that. Having worked for DCFS for a spell, I can very confidently say that there's really no consistent pattern of behavior exhibited by people who've just experienced traumatic events, rape especially. It's not like they all just follow protocol and go running to the police the next day. In the (admittedly unlikely) event that that girl had been raped the night before, she may have responded to a friend who unknowingly asked how her day was by saying, "You know, actually, I've had a pretty bad couple of days, but I really don't want to go into it." To which he might have replied: "Oh, well I've got tickets to see this comedian tonight, come along, it might cheer you up." You just never know.

Hell, maybe it wasn't even the previous night--maybe it was a 1-2 year old occurrence. A somewhat more likely circumstance, and still pretty understandable that she might be sensitive to it.
.

in any case, its not really relevent and such transferrance is irrational. the ultimate blame for her offense would be the rapist, not the silly comedian. I wouldnt go out of my way to make rape jokes to someone i know has been raped, but expecting an entire audience that's never experienced anything i joke about is going to result in some very bland material. And whats so inherently evil about offending people at a comedy show anyway?

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 Post subject: Re: The Limits of Humor
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:49 pm 
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bmacsmith wrote:
the ultimate blame for her offense would be the rapist, not the silly comedian.


The ultimate blame, yes, but not all of it. This business of deflecting all responsibility off the offending party and onto someone else is purely juvenile. Yeah, I get it--you can't know what all everyone in the audience has been through. But use your fucking brain. Like I said, in most cases, it behooves people to check their sensitivities at the door when attending a comedy show. But surely Tosh could have reacted to her comment in a way that not only would have been way classier but also a hell of a lot funnier, which as a comedian you'd hope would be his interest more than being "shocking" or "controversial."

bmacsmith wrote:
And whats so inherently evil about offending people at a comedy show anyway?


I don't know, bmac--what's so inherently evil about killing people in a war? I mean, it's kind of part of the whole "war" package, right? Some behaviors, recontextualize them however you like, are still just plain rotten. Obviously this isn't on par with that, and again, I don't move that all comedy should always be subject to everyone's whims and sensitivities, nor do I think that people are incapable of simply being whiners. But generally, I don't find myself sympathizing with grown-ups who just seem either incapable or flatly unwilling to sympathize with others. I get that comedy can be a rough business. But you can say the same thing about a lot of other businesses that involve people doing shitty things. Rarely do I think it makes the shitty things okay.

bmacsmith wrote:
Personally, I believe that to be offensive one has to mean offense.


This isn't true in any other walk of life, why would it be true here? I shoot at a squirrel and end up hitting my neighbor, won't my neighbor be just as dead? I get in my car intending to drive home safely, but instead I end up smashing into a compact car and sending someone to the hospital--won't their physical therapy be just as painful? The reason most people think intent is irrelevant is because oftentimes what someone intended to do has no bearing at all on what actually happens. Offensive comments work the same way.

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 Post subject: Re: The Limits of Humor
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:51 pm 
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Kevin Davis wrote:

This isn't true in any other walk of life, why would it be true here? I shoot at a squirrel and end up hitting my neighbor, won't my neighbor be just as dead? I get in my car intending to drive home safely, but instead I end up smashing into a compact car and sending someone to the hospital--won't their physical therapy be just as painful?

Sure, but there's also a reason why you won't be charged with the same crime as you would be had you intentionally shot at your neighbor or slammed into another car.

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 Post subject: Re: The Limits of Humor
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:51 pm 
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because being offensive is exactly like war and killing people. :shake:

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 Post subject: Re: The Limits of Humor
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:00 pm 
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bmacsmith wrote:
because being offensive is exactly like war and killing people. :shake:


Uh, did you even read what I wrote?

Kevin Davis wrote:
I don't know, bmac--what's so inherently evil about killing people in a war? I mean, it's kind of part of the whole "war" package, right? Some behaviors, recontextualize them however you like, are still just plain rotten. Obviously this isn't on par with that


Anyway, surely you're not so daft that you can't realize the difference between using a comparison to illustrate a philosophical similarity and morally equating the two actions. The point isn't to equate killing with rape jokes; the point is to illustrate that some things, regardless of how you contextualize them, are just plain crappy.

cutuphalfdead wrote:
Sure, but there's also a reason why you won't be charged with the same crime as you would be had you intentionally shot at your neighbor or slammed into another car.


Yeah, absolutely. And it's not like I think anyone who posts an offensive joke about Aurora, Colorado should be criminally punished similarly to James Holmes. I'm just saying the effects of an action are no less real just because you didn't intend them.

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 Post subject: Re: The Limits of Humor
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:11 pm 
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Kevin Davis wrote:
bmacsmith wrote:
the ultimate blame for her offense would be the rapist, not the silly comedian.


The ultimate blame, yes, but not all of it. This business of deflecting all responsibility off the offending party and onto someone else is purely juvenile. Yeah, I get it--you can't know what all everyone in the audience has been through. But use your fucking brain. Like I said, in most cases, it behooves people to check their sensitivities at the door when attending a comedy show. But surely Tosh could have reacted to her comment in a way that not only would have been way classier but also a hell of a lot funnier, which as a comedian you'd hope would be his interest more than being "shocking" or "controversial." .

what you think is funny is irrelevent to the discussion. I am using my fucking brain and not allowing art to be watered down by the overly sensitive. Tosh's humor isnt known for its "class", but that doesnt make it inherently unfunny. personally i think he's ok, not great.

Kevin Davis wrote:
bmacsmith wrote:
And whats so inherently evil about offending people at a comedy show anyway?


I don't know, bmac--what's so inherently evil about killing people in a war? I mean, it's kind of part of the whole "war" package, right? Some behaviors, recontextualize them however you like, are still just plain rotten. Obviously this isn't on par with that, and again, I don't move that all comedy should always be subject to everyone's whims and sensitivities, nor do I think that people are incapable of simply being whiners. But generally, I don't find myself sympathizing with grown-ups who just seem either incapable or flatly unwilling to sympathize with others. I get that comedy can be a rough business. But you can say the same thing about a lot of other businesses that involve people doing shitty things. Rarely do I think it makes the shitty things okay.


context is always important,
Kevin Davis wrote:
bmacsmith wrote:
Personally, I believe that to be offensive one has to mean offense.


This isn't true in any other walk of life, why would it be true here? I shoot at a squirrel and end up hitting my neighbor, won't my neighbor be just as dead? I get in my car intending to drive home safely, but instead I end up smashing into a compact car and sending someone to the hospital--won't their physical therapy be just as painful? The reason most people think intent is irrelevant is because oftentimes what someone intended to do has no bearing at all on what actually happens. Offensive comments work the same way.

its true in many aspects of life actually. A kid accidentally hurting another kid during a sporting event like a baseball game isnt the same as a kid purposefully hurting the other, regardless of how irrationally the parent acts. Breaking someone's toy on accident is different than doing it on purpose, regardless of the state of the toy. It changes the context. it isnt black or white. Its not limited to pure accidents either.

edit: i read the "on par" statement but even including that you are still making wild comparisons.

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Last edited by bmacsmith on Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:19 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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 Post subject: Re: The Limits of Humor
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:17 pm 
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bmacsmith wrote:
its true in many aspects of life actually. A kid accidentally hurting another kid during a sporting event like a baseball game isnt the same as a kid purposefully hurting the other, regardless of how irrationally the parent acts. Breaking someone's toy on accident is different than doing it on purpose, regardless of the state of the toy.


Right, but you're arguing 'cause' here. My point is that the effect is no different, which is essentially what you were arguing to begin with: "Something is only offensive"--i.e. someone can only be caused offense--"if it was intended to be offensive." No, that's wrong. In both of the scenarios you've provided above, the effect is no different regardless of intent. The baseball player is still just as hurt. The toy is still just as broken. The offended person is still just as offended. You may think it's unwarranted, but it doesn't change the reality of the situation.

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 Post subject: Re: The Limits of Humor
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:33 pm 
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Kevin Davis wrote:
bmacsmith wrote:
its true in many aspects of life actually. A kid accidentally hurting another kid during a sporting event like a baseball game isnt the same as a kid purposefully hurting the other, regardless of how irrationally the parent acts. Breaking someone's toy on accident is different than doing it on purpose, regardless of the state of the toy.


Right, but you're arguing 'cause' here. My point is that the effect is no different, which is essentially what you were arguing to begin with: "Something is only offensive"--i.e. someone can only be caused offense--"if it was intended to be offensive." No, that's wrong. In both of the scenarios you've provided above, the effect is no different regardless of intent. The baseball player is still just as hurt. The toy is still just as broken. The offended person is still just as offended. You may think it's unwarranted, but it doesn't change the reality of the situation.

I wasnt being entirely literal there, a person can be offended, and often are, but its not rational to be in most cases. It is unwarranted. The source of offense is internal, not from the comedian. Is the effect the same? maybe, but the remedy should be different. I would suggest lightening the fuck up.

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 Post subject: Re: The Limits of Humor
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:37 pm 
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Kevin Davis wrote:
bmacsmith wrote:
its true in many aspects of life actually. A kid accidentally hurting another kid during a sporting event like a baseball game isnt the same as a kid purposefully hurting the other, regardless of how irrationally the parent acts. Breaking someone's toy on accident is different than doing it on purpose, regardless of the state of the toy.


Right, but you're arguing 'cause' here. My point is that the effect is no different, which is essentially what you were arguing to begin with: "Something is only offensive"--i.e. someone can only be caused offense--"if it was intended to be offensive." No, that's wrong. In both of the scenarios you've provided above, the effect is no different regardless of intent. The baseball player is still just as hurt. The toy is still just as broken. The offended person is still just as offended. You may think it's unwarranted, but it doesn't change the reality of the situation.

I think humans, and among humans emotional harm as opposed to physical harm, is more complex than that. I know I've certainly taken context and intent into affect when determining how offended I am about something. Context matters when it comes to people and their emotional reactions.

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 Post subject: Re: The Limits of Humor
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:09 pm 
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Isn't the source of offense always internal? I mean, isn't it just as possible to not take offense at something that was fully intended to be offensive?

In any case, I guess I just don't subscribe to the idea that being uncompromising as a performer/artist is more important than common human decency. When a female heckler says, "Actually, rape jokes are never funny," it just seems like there's a better way to respond than, "Actually, wouldn't it be funny if five guys just raped you right now?" A woman who would take offense to that is not being unusually prudish; a woman who would take offense to that is probably being painfully normal.

cutuphalfdead wrote:
I know I've certainly taken context and intent into affect when determining how offended I am about something.


This discrepancy has more or less been at the heart of every disagreement I've ever had with my wife. She treats her emotional reactions as gut feelings, I treat them as algebra problems. It would be nice if everyone could think that logically, but barring that it seems like the least we can do is meet each other halfway. And with that, I'll meet you guys halfway and shut up.

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 Post subject: Re: The Limits of Humor
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:16 pm 
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Kevin Davis wrote:
Isn't the source of offense always internal? I mean, isn't it just as possible to not take offense at something that was fully intended to be offensive?

In any case, I guess I just don't subscribe to the idea that being uncompromising as a performer/artist is more important than common human decency. When a female heckler says, "Actually, rape jokes are never funny," it just seems like there's a better way to respond than, "Actually, wouldn't it be funny if five guys just raped you right now?" A woman who would take offense to that is not being unusually prudish; a woman who would take offense to that is probably being painfully normal.

cutuphalfdead wrote:
I know I've certainly taken context and intent into affect when determining how offended I am about something.


This discrepancy has more or less been at the heart of every disagreement I've ever had with my wife. She treats her emotional reactions as gut feelings, I treat them as algebra problems. It would be nice if everyone could think that logically, but barring that it seems like the least we can do is meet each other halfway. And with that, I'll meet you guys halfway and shut up.

I really don't think we disagree on this very much.

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 Post subject: Re: The Limits of Humor
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:22 pm 
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I blame bmacsmith for pitting us against each other.

He probably didn't mean to, though.

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 Post subject: Re: The Limits of Humor
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:23 pm 
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I really wish you kept the KD joke in your signature.

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 Post subject: Re: The Limits of Humor
PostPosted: Sun Jul 22, 2012 9:23 pm 
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Kevin Davis wrote:
I blame bmacsmith for pitting us against each other.

He probably didn't mean to, though.

hey bro, no offense!

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 Post subject: Re: The Limits of Humor
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 10:50 am 
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bmacsmith wrote:
because being offensive is exactly like war and killing people. :shake:

Them's some mighty keen reading comprehension skills you got there son

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 Post subject: Re: The Limits of Humor
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 11:59 am 
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theplatypus wrote:
bmacsmith wrote:
because being offensive is exactly like war and killing people. :shake:

Them's some mighty keen reading comprehension skills you got there son

Oh stfu. It was a ridiculous comparison and i responded in kind. catch up to the conversation please.

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 Post subject: Re: The Limits of Humor
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 12:45 pm 
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 Post subject: Re: The Limits of Humor
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 2:33 pm 
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I believe it depends on the audience.

You wouldn't want to tell the "dead baby" joke at it's funeral, for instance.

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 Post subject: Re: The Limits of Humor
PostPosted: Mon Jul 23, 2012 5:57 pm 
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knee tunes wrote:
I believe it depends on the audience.

You wouldn't want to tell the "dead baby" joke at it's funeral, for instance.


I'd laugh.


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 Post subject: Re: The Limits of Humor
PostPosted: Mon Sep 03, 2012 5:18 am 
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i seem to recall sebastian bach wore a shirt that said Aids kills fags dead and couldnt understand why people found it offensive


then turns around and says hed be pretty pissed if a fan at his show had a shirt on that said, cancer kills grandmothers dead (his grandmother had just passed i believe).

though he would probably laugh

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