Board index » Word on the Street... » News & Debate




Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 88 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5
Author Message
 Post subject: Re: Sequestration / Fiscal Cliff
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:30 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Global Moderator
 Profile

Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:02 am
Posts: 44183
Location: New York
Gender: Male
Electromatic wrote:
stip wrote:
Electromatic wrote:
Is it too late to recall everybody??


Don't blame the members of Congress for this. They are reflecting the voices of the constituencies that elected them. Blame them, and the voters who stay home and help these guys get elected (and the state legislatures that gerrymandered a few key states and the state constitutions that let it happen) Unless I've missed some new data on this, I suspect every person getting in the way of a deal has fairly strong support of their voting constituency.

This whole process speaks volumes about what's wrong with our political system right now, but I don't think it's the politicians. Many may in fact be terrible, but they are terrible because our process is electing terrible leaders and giving them power they can't responsibly wield. This is an institutional and structural issue.



I'm not a big fan of the political environment of this nation right now. Indeed we have the government that we deserve.

That said, I've rarely come across a politician worthy of respect. I am loath to call them public servants.

Listening to peoples political discussions in public places and news channels is depressing and disheartening. Especially the discussion coming from political figures.

It's really not that hard, to sit in a room with people who disagree, and work out a solution, especially to something like this ridiculous sequestration.


well, yes and no. But the people who are most active in politics right now (in terms of the voters) are the most polarized portions of the electorate. Alan Ambramovitz has a good recent book about this phenomena. This is exacerbated by the fact that the republican party is vastly more conservative than it used to be (keep in mind that the democrats are not proposing a return to the far more progressive pre Reagan tax code) reflecting those shifts in the electorate. Where those shifts came from is a different conversation, but we don't have political leaders right now who are capable of sitting down in a room because the people who elected them don't really want them to do that.

We do have, especially in the republican party, an usually cringe worthy group of elected officials who should be a source of national embarrassment. But our electorate keeps electing them by large margins.

_________________
"Better the occasional faults of a Government that lives in a spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a Government frozen in the ice of its own indifference."--FDR

The perfect gift for certain occasions


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Sequestration / Fiscal Cliff
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 12:38 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Unthought Known
 Profile

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:49 pm
Posts: 9495
Location: Richie-Richville, Maryland
stip wrote:
Electromatic wrote:
Is it too late to recall everybody??


Don't blame the members of Congress for this. They are reflecting the voices of the constituencies that elected them. Blame them, and the voters who stay home and help these guys get elected (and the state legislatures that gerrymandered a few key states and the state constitutions that let it happen) Unless I've missed some new data on this, I suspect every person getting in the way of a deal has fairly strong support of their voting constituency.

This whole process speaks volumes about what's wrong with our political system right now, but I don't think it's the politicians. Many may in fact be terrible, but they are terrible because our process is electing terrible leaders and giving them power they can't responsibly wield. This is an institutional and structural issue.



Stip, I am a little surprised at this one. You honestly don't blame the politicians for this situation? They voted (and Obama signed) the law that set up this situation where the parties can hold each others sacred cows as hostages. They are the ones whom are limiting the public discussion to the tax rates of less than 5% of the population while hiding the tax increases and service cuts that will crush the remaining American middle class. They are not out there speaking about the cuts to early childhood education when it is most essential to teach kids to learn for the rest of their lives, cuts to food and environmental safety just as more evidence of the BP gulf spill have ruptured the sea floor is finally making it into the MSM, the number of federally subsidized prisons that will have to release criminals onto the streets early, the cuts to mental health treatments (more Newtowns?), the estate tax that will effect many family farms and ranches who have low capital assets but lots of land (farm land is the current bubble du jour), and the biggest killer of them all: the AMT which will increase in effect from 4,000,000 households to 30,000,000 which means any family that makes between $75k and $300k will probably not get a tax refund for 2012 (not 2013 income, but the taxes that are due in April). The AMT issues also mean that taxes for 2012 will not be released in January, so we not even be able to file our taxes for several months (and thus not get the refunds that so many are depending on). But listening to Obama "we have to make the rich pay their fair share" or the Repubs "We have to have entitlement reform" is nothing but an attempt to divert blame for the cluster fuck that is going to happen next year to those evil bastards in "the other party".

They set this up, they are to blame (Repubs more than Dems in this case, but that hardly matters).

_________________
you get a lifetime, that's it.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Sequestration / Fiscal Cliff
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 1:56 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Global Moderator
 Profile

Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:02 am
Posts: 44183
Location: New York
Gender: Male
broken iris wrote:
stip wrote:
Electromatic wrote:
Is it too late to recall everybody??


Don't blame the members of Congress for this. They are reflecting the voices of the constituencies that elected them. Blame them, and the voters who stay home and help these guys get elected (and the state legislatures that gerrymandered a few key states and the state constitutions that let it happen) Unless I've missed some new data on this, I suspect every person getting in the way of a deal has fairly strong support of their voting constituency.

This whole process speaks volumes about what's wrong with our political system right now, but I don't think it's the politicians. Many may in fact be terrible, but they are terrible because our process is electing terrible leaders and giving them power they can't responsibly wield. This is an institutional and structural issue.



Stip, I am a little surprised at this one. You honestly don't blame the politicians for this situation? They voted (and Obama signed) the law that set up this situation where the parties can hold each others sacred cows as hostages. They are the ones whom are limiting the public discussion to the tax rates of less than 5% of the population while hiding the tax increases and service cuts that will crush the remaining American middle class. They are not out there speaking about the cuts to early childhood education when it is most essential to teach kids to learn for the rest of their lives, cuts to food and environmental safety just as more evidence of the BP gulf spill have ruptured the sea floor is finally making it into the MSM, the number of federally subsidized prisons that will have to release criminals onto the streets early, the cuts to mental health treatments (more Newtowns?), the estate tax that will effect many family farms and ranches who have low capital assets but lots of land (farm land is the current bubble du jour), and the biggest killer of them all: the AMT which will increase in effect from 4,000,000 households to 30,000,000 which means any family that makes between $75k and $300k will probably not get a tax refund for 2012 (not 2013 income, but the taxes that are due in April). The AMT issues also mean that taxes for 2012 will not be released in January, so we not even be able to file our taxes for several months (and thus not get the refunds that so many are depending on). But listening to Obama "we have to make the rich pay their fair share" or the Repubs "We have to have entitlement reform" is nothing but an attempt to divert blame for the cluster fuck that is going to happen next year to those evil bastards in "the other party".

They set this up, they are to blame (Repubs more than Dems in this case, but that hardly matters).


Oh sure, I blame them. But the fiscal cliff debacle reflects much deeper issues that go further than a bunch of crummy politicians. What got us to this point? What incentivizes this kind of self destructive behavior? This is the culmination of a decades long buildup. it reflects the idiot deal that people made last year, but that deal didn't happen in a vacuum.

_________________
"Better the occasional faults of a Government that lives in a spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a Government frozen in the ice of its own indifference."--FDR

The perfect gift for certain occasions


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Sequestration / Fiscal Cliff
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 3:18 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Got Some
 Profile

Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:52 pm
Posts: 2647
Location: Where gila monsters meet you at the airport
stip wrote:
broken iris wrote:
stip wrote:
Electromatic wrote:
Is it too late to recall everybody??


Don't blame the members of Congress for this. They are reflecting the voices of the constituencies that elected them. Blame them, and the voters who stay home and help these guys get elected (and the state legislatures that gerrymandered a few key states and the state constitutions that let it happen) Unless I've missed some new data on this, I suspect every person getting in the way of a deal has fairly strong support of their voting constituency.

This whole process speaks volumes about what's wrong with our political system right now, but I don't think it's the politicians. Many may in fact be terrible, but they are terrible because our process is electing terrible leaders and giving them power they can't responsibly wield. This is an institutional and structural issue.



Stip, I am a little surprised at this one. You honestly don't blame the politicians for this situation? They voted (and Obama signed) the law that set up this situation where the parties can hold each others sacred cows as hostages. They are the ones whom are limiting the public discussion to the tax rates of less than 5% of the population while hiding the tax increases and service cuts that will crush the remaining American middle class. They are not out there speaking about the cuts to early childhood education when it is most essential to teach kids to learn for the rest of their lives, cuts to food and environmental safety just as more evidence of the BP gulf spill have ruptured the sea floor is finally making it into the MSM, the number of federally subsidized prisons that will have to release criminals onto the streets early, the cuts to mental health treatments (more Newtowns?), the estate tax that will effect many family farms and ranches who have low capital assets but lots of land (farm land is the current bubble du jour), and the biggest killer of them all: the AMT which will increase in effect from 4,000,000 households to 30,000,000 which means any family that makes between $75k and $300k will probably not get a tax refund for 2012 (not 2013 income, but the taxes that are due in April). The AMT issues also mean that taxes for 2012 will not be released in January, so we not even be able to file our taxes for several months (and thus not get the refunds that so many are depending on). But listening to Obama "we have to make the rich pay their fair share" or the Repubs "We have to have entitlement reform" is nothing but an attempt to divert blame for the cluster fuck that is going to happen next year to those evil bastards in "the other party".

They set this up, they are to blame (Repubs more than Dems in this case, but that hardly matters).


Oh sure, I blame them. But the fiscal cliff debacle reflects much deeper issues that go further than a bunch of crummy politicians. What got us to this point? What incentivizes this kind of self destructive behavior? This is the culmination of a decades long buildup. it reflects the idiot deal that people made last year, but that deal didn't happen in a vacuum.


I agree you can't just look at this in a vacuum. It's so rooted in the crazy Grover Norquist pledges that most people don't take seriously ... except those who do hold purse strings and voting power.

I also sometimes get the feeling that there's an element of martyrdom that may have seeped in from the religious wing of the party about it all, too, but that may just be a personal bias. But I do often get the feeling that some of these lawmakers are essentially saying, "I'd rather the country go to hell but remain pure, than ever compromise my ideals." Which is simply not the nature of politics and while there have always been people who feel that way, few ever went into politics, or did very well if they tried.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Sequestration / Fiscal Cliff
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 4:10 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Unthought Known
 Profile

Joined: Tue Apr 19, 2005 4:49 pm
Posts: 9495
Location: Richie-Richville, Maryland
mray10 wrote:

I agree you can't just look at this in a vacuum. It's so rooted in the crazy Grover Norquist pledges that most people don't take seriously ... except those who do hold purse strings and voting power.


Well, a farm bill could be passed without violating those pledges. The AMT fix could extended without violating those pledges. Defense cuts could be made without violating those pledges. But, none that was done because each of the major parties thought the election would give them the 'mandate' to disregard compromise. Now they are in situation where the good of the economy and the middle class will require one of the parties to give in and each party is pointing at the other one. They putting the good of the party above the good of the electorate and it's the worst element of modern American politics.

_________________
you get a lifetime, that's it.


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Sequestration / Fiscal Cliff
PostPosted: Thu Dec 27, 2012 5:06 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Unthought Known
 Profile

Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:54 am
Posts: 7189
Location: CA
The sad thing is that the cuts and tax rates of the fiscal cliff still don't get us anywhere near sound budgetary footing. If these inadequate cuts are too painful then what chance do we have of reforming before the dollar ceases to be the most popular reserve currency?


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Sequestration / Fiscal Cliff
PostPosted: Sun Dec 30, 2012 5:20 pm 
Offline
User avatar
Got Some
 Profile

Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:47 pm
Posts: 2932
My Fellow Americans,

Under threat of fine and imprisonment, we are requiring that you bail out our fabulously incompetent federal government.
Clearly, a revenue stream of 2.5 trillion is insufficient.
We also ask that you don't bat an eyelash when we raise the debt ceiling, thereby necessitating another bailout in the near future.

Happy New Year

_________________
For your sake
I hope heaven and hell
are really there
but I wouldn't hold my breath


Top
 
 Post subject: Re: Sequestration / Fiscal Cliff
PostPosted: Mon Dec 31, 2012 12:10 am 
Offline
User avatar
Supersonic
 Profile

Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:07 pm
Posts: 12393
I'm not sure Americans actually have any politics, really. We just favor different whines.


Top
 
Display posts from previous:  Sort by  
Post new topic Reply to topic  [ 88 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5

Board index » Word on the Street... » News & Debate


Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests


You cannot post new topics in this forum
You cannot reply to topics in this forum
You cannot edit your posts in this forum
You cannot delete your posts in this forum
You cannot post attachments in this forum

Search for:
Jump to:  
cron
It is currently Sat Aug 19, 2017 6:53 pm