A friend of mine just summed it up about as well as anyone could:
Quote:
A god who allows innocent children to die because he's in a snit over his alleged expulsion from public schools is not worthy of our worship. If this is the god of the Religious Right, they can have him. I have no interest in spending eternity with such an unethical and evil being.
It seems improbable to me that a being could evolved to the state that the Christian god has supposedly evolved too and still have any interest in being worshipped.
Because not every one of the faithful associates themselves with the Bryan Fischers of the world. It keeps the hope alive.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:47 am Posts: 46000 Location: Reasonville
I Hail Randy Moss wrote:
Because not every one of the faithful associates themselves with the Bryan Fischers of the world.
Thank God.
_________________ No matter how dark the storm gets overhead They say someone's watching from the calm at the edge What about us when we're down here in it? We gotta watch our backs
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:47 am Posts: 46000 Location: Reasonville
I Hail Randy Moss wrote:
corduroy_blazer wrote:
I Hail Randy Moss wrote:
Because not every one of the faithful associates themselves with the Bryan Fischers of the world.
Thank God.
Well, come on, if last night you told the Deacon of Newtown, Conn the reasons why this happened, I'd imagine he'd be disgusted with you.
You mean Fischer's reasons? I'm sure. I'm sure he'd have something to say about finding solace in prayer and coming together as a community, which some people would find worthwhile. But then someone would ask him that tough question, "how could God have let this happen?" (as Huckabee was asked) and he would have had to say something like "it's all part of God's plan; we can't question his ways."
Let's face it: there are religious reactions to events like these which many people will find meaningful, but there are really no religious explanations.
_________________ No matter how dark the storm gets overhead They say someone's watching from the calm at the edge What about us when we're down here in it? We gotta watch our backs
Because not every one of the faithful associates themselves with the Bryan Fischers of the world.
Thank God.
Well, come on, if last night you told the Deacon of Newtown, Conn the reasons why this happened, I'd imagine he'd be disgusted with you.
You mean Fischer's reasons? I'm sure. I'm sure he'd have something to say about finding solace in prayer and coming together as a community, which some people would find worthwhile. But then someone would ask him that tough question, "how could God have let this happen?" (as Huckabee was asked) and he would have had to say something like "it's all part of God's plan; we can't question his ways."
Let's face it: there are religious reactions to events like these which many people will find meaningful, but there are really no religious explanations.
Yes, Fischers.
And there is nothing wrong with calling God in the Dock. Job did the same thing.
If I was asked why this happened, many people wouldn't like my answer. It comes from the Book of Job and C.S. Lewis' "The Problem of Pain", and all makes sense to me. I wouldn't say, "Only God has the answers." But I guess that is said because a more in depth, abstract answer is too much to take in too soon.
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 3:04 am Posts: 12383 Gender: Male
stip wrote:
I've been really agitated today about all the violence and horrible things we subject children to. The shooting dramatizes it, but the horrified reaction we all (rightfully) had makes me wonder where this is with kids who are homeless, hungry, and all the rest.
I think that reaction is there to a lesser extent for kids with cancer and for young families who were so-called "victims" of the mortgage crisis, but you're right...where is the outrage for the homeless and hungry children who end up quietly dead?
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:02 am Posts: 44183 Location: New York Gender: Male
Coach wrote:
stip wrote:
I've been really agitated today about all the violence and horrible things we subject children to. The shooting dramatizes it, but the horrified reaction we all (rightfully) had makes me wonder where this is with kids who are homeless, hungry, and all the rest.
I think that reaction is there to a lesser extent for kids with cancer and for young families who were so-called "victims" of the mortgage crisis, but you're right...where is the outrage for the homeless and hungry children who end up quietly dead?
or denied school lunches, etc.
we're rightfully horrified by this because the victims are doubly innocent, and if we can't protect them we have failed some rudimentary test as a people/nation/civilization. But we also fail to protect them in countless other ways every day, and don't seem to bothered by it.
_________________ "Better the occasional faults of a Government that lives in a spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a Government frozen in the ice of its own indifference."--FDR
Because not every one of the faithful associates themselves with the Bryan Fischers of the world.
Thank God.
Well, come on, if last night you told the Deacon of Newtown, Conn the reasons why this happened, I'd imagine he'd be disgusted with you.
You mean Fischer's reasons? I'm sure. I'm sure he'd have something to say about finding solace in prayer and coming together as a community, which some people would find worthwhile. But then someone would ask him that tough question, "how could God have let this happen?" (as Huckabee was asked) and he would have had to say something like "it's all part of God's plan; we can't question his ways."
Let's face it: there are religious reactions to events like these which many people will find meaningful, but there are really no religious explanations.
Yes, Fischers.
And there is nothing wrong with calling God in the Dock. Job did the same thing.
If I was asked why this happened, many people wouldn't like my answer. It comes from the Book of Job and C.S. Lewis' "The Problem of Pain", and all makes sense to me. I wouldn't say, "Only God has the answers." But I guess that is said because a more in depth, abstract answer is too much to take in too soon.
What if God doesn't have the 'answers'? What if God is neither all-knowing nor all-powerful? We are told he grieves with us; but how could he, if these events were no surprise to him?
Because not every one of the faithful associates themselves with the Bryan Fischers of the world.
Thank God.
Well, come on, if last night you told the Deacon of Newtown, Conn the reasons why this happened, I'd imagine he'd be disgusted with you.
You mean Fischer's reasons? I'm sure. I'm sure he'd have something to say about finding solace in prayer and coming together as a community, which some people would find worthwhile. But then someone would ask him that tough question, "how could God have let this happen?" (as Huckabee was asked) and he would have had to say something like "it's all part of God's plan; we can't question his ways."
Let's face it: there are religious reactions to events like these which many people will find meaningful, but there are really no religious explanations.
Yes, Fischers.
And there is nothing wrong with calling God in the Dock. Job did the same thing.
If I was asked why this happened, many people wouldn't like my answer. It comes from the Book of Job and C.S. Lewis' "The Problem of Pain", and all makes sense to me. I wouldn't say, "Only God has the answers." But I guess that is said because a more in depth, abstract answer is too much to take in too soon.
What if God doesn't have the 'answers'? What if God is neither all-knowing nor all-powerful? We are told he grieves with us; but how could he, if these events were no surprise to him?
I focus on the individual's handling of it. I don't claim to know everything about existence and the universe, I just try to help myself and others cope with adversity the best way I know how. Basically, my whole philosphy is "Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger." You don't even need to add God in the equation. But it just so happens the words I"m inspired by are written by the faith leaning crowd in history.
I do want to start reading essays by Jean-Paul Satre, and maybe C_B's hero Bertrand Russell. Get a little variety.
Because not every one of the faithful associates themselves with the Bryan Fischers of the world.
Thank God.
Well, come on, if last night you told the Deacon of Newtown, Conn the reasons why this happened, I'd imagine he'd be disgusted with you.
You mean Fischer's reasons? I'm sure. I'm sure he'd have something to say about finding solace in prayer and coming together as a community, which some people would find worthwhile. But then someone would ask him that tough question, "how could God have let this happen?" (as Huckabee was asked) and he would have had to say something like "it's all part of God's plan; we can't question his ways."
Let's face it: there are religious reactions to events like these which many people will find meaningful, but there are really no religious explanations.
Yes, Fischers.
And there is nothing wrong with calling God in the Dock. Job did the same thing.
If I was asked why this happened, many people wouldn't like my answer. It comes from the Book of Job and C.S. Lewis' "The Problem of Pain", and all makes sense to me. I wouldn't say, "Only God has the answers." But I guess that is said because a more in depth, abstract answer is too much to take in too soon.
What if God doesn't have the 'answers'? What if God is neither all-knowing nor all-powerful? We are told he grieves with us; but how could he, if these events were no surprise to him?
I focus on the individual's handling of it. I don't claim to know everything about existence and the universe, I just try to help myself and others cope with adversity the best way I know how. Basically, my whole philosphy is "Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger." You don't even need to add God in the equation. But it just so happens the words I"m inspired by are written by the faith leaning crowd in history.
I do want to start reading essays by Jean-Paul Satre, and maybe C_B's hero Bertrand Russell. Get a little variety.
Yep. Hey, I have a Christian faith myself so we're on the same page. My questions weren't meant to be confrontational, just to raise questions: what if we don't have to make these trite explanations after these disasters happen? We do seem to be desperately grasping at straws most of the time, don't we, and our answers sound so ridiculous to people. But if we're wrong about the nature of God, if what we believe about him is more doctrinal than biblical, maybe we can afford to change the rules and say hey, God didn't know this would happen, God couldn't stop this, and he's devastated. I can't say, but if I was an atheist, I would probably give a Christian who said this 10 minutes of my time.
Because not every one of the faithful associates themselves with the Bryan Fischers of the world.
Thank God.
Well, come on, if last night you told the Deacon of Newtown, Conn the reasons why this happened, I'd imagine he'd be disgusted with you.
You mean Fischer's reasons? I'm sure. I'm sure he'd have something to say about finding solace in prayer and coming together as a community, which some people would find worthwhile. But then someone would ask him that tough question, "how could God have let this happen?" (as Huckabee was asked) and he would have had to say something like "it's all part of God's plan; we can't question his ways."
Let's face it: there are religious reactions to events like these which many people will find meaningful, but there are really no religious explanations.
Yes, Fischers.
And there is nothing wrong with calling God in the Dock. Job did the same thing.
If I was asked why this happened, many people wouldn't like my answer. It comes from the Book of Job and C.S. Lewis' "The Problem of Pain", and all makes sense to me. I wouldn't say, "Only God has the answers." But I guess that is said because a more in depth, abstract answer is too much to take in too soon.
What if God doesn't have the 'answers'? What if God is neither all-knowing nor all-powerful? We are told he grieves with us; but how could he, if these events were no surprise to him?
I focus on the individual's handling of it. I don't claim to know everything about existence and the universe, I just try to help myself and others cope with adversity the best way I know how. Basically, my whole philosphy is "Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger." You don't even need to add God in the equation. But it just so happens the words I"m inspired by are written by the faith leaning crowd in history.
I do want to start reading essays by Jean-Paul Satre, and maybe C_B's hero Bertrand Russell. Get a little variety.
Yep. Hey, I have a Christian faith myself so we're on the same page. My questions weren't meant to be confrontational, just to raise questions: what if we don't have to make these trite explanations after these disasters happen? We do seem to be desperately grasping at straws most of the time, don't we, and our answers sound so ridiculous to people. But if we're wrong about the nature of God, if what we believe about him is more doctrinal than biblical, maybe we can afford to change the rules and say hey, God didn't know this would happen, God couldn't stop this, and he's devastated. I can't say, but if I was an atheist, I would probably give a Christian who said this 10 minutes of my time.
You could say that, I guess, but I don't know what the reaction would be. I would say to find the grace and good even in the bad (whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger), but no one would like that answer. I honestly don't know what I would say hours after such a tragedy. Too much emotion to contend with, including my own.
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:02 am Posts: 44183 Location: New York Gender: Male
I Hail Randy Moss wrote:
Harmless wrote:
I Hail Randy Moss wrote:
corduroy_blazer wrote:
I Hail Randy Moss wrote:
corduroy_blazer wrote:
I Hail Randy Moss wrote:
Because not every one of the faithful associates themselves with the Bryan Fischers of the world.
Thank God.
Well, come on, if last night you told the Deacon of Newtown, Conn the reasons why this happened, I'd imagine he'd be disgusted with you.
You mean Fischer's reasons? I'm sure. I'm sure he'd have something to say about finding solace in prayer and coming together as a community, which some people would find worthwhile. But then someone would ask him that tough question, "how could God have let this happen?" (as Huckabee was asked) and he would have had to say something like "it's all part of God's plan; we can't question his ways."
Let's face it: there are religious reactions to events like these which many people will find meaningful, but there are really no religious explanations.
Yes, Fischers.
And there is nothing wrong with calling God in the Dock. Job did the same thing.
If I was asked why this happened, many people wouldn't like my answer. It comes from the Book of Job and C.S. Lewis' "The Problem of Pain", and all makes sense to me. I wouldn't say, "Only God has the answers." But I guess that is said because a more in depth, abstract answer is too much to take in too soon.
What if God doesn't have the 'answers'? What if God is neither all-knowing nor all-powerful? We are told he grieves with us; but how could he, if these events were no surprise to him?
I focus on the individual's handling of it. I don't claim to know everything about existence and the universe, I just try to help myself and others cope with adversity the best way I know how. Basically, my whole philosphy is "Whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger." You don't even need to add God in the equation. But it just so happens the words I"m inspired by are written by the faith leaning crowd in history.
I do want to start reading essays by Jean-Paul Satre, and maybe C_B's hero Bertrand Russell. Get a little variety.
Bertrand Russell's 'why I am not a christian' is pretty good. As an atheist I can say that outside of real serious works of philosophy most stuff on atheism is only marginally good since it's weighed down by triumphal 'i am so much smarter than you' posturing.
The best thing I've ever read about God is from the philosopher Lucretius, a small section in his large epic poem 'on the nature of things' Let me find some passages
_________________ "Better the occasional faults of a Government that lives in a spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a Government frozen in the ice of its own indifference."--FDR
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:02 am Posts: 44183 Location: New York Gender: Male
Questioning why the gods let bad things happen when they have so much power
..."If the gods, Jupiter and the others, shake the skies With dreadful uproar, heaving fire around At each one's whim, why don't' they ever make Persons of criminal impulse, not averse To evildoing, breathe out fire, exhale Sulphur from riddled chests? That ought to teach them! Why are the blameless and the innocent-- With nothing on their consciences--involved, Wrapped in the fires of heaven, annihilated? Why aim at lonely places, waste their time Hurling at deserts? Are they practicing, Just warming up, just getting loose? And why Do they allow their father's weapon, Jove's, to blunt its point on the earth? Why, for that matter, Does he permit such nonsense, and not save The weapon for the his enemies?"
_________________ "Better the occasional faults of a Government that lives in a spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a Government frozen in the ice of its own indifference."--FDR
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:02 am Posts: 44183 Location: New York Gender: Male
I don't have time to type out the other passage I really like and am not a fan of the translation that he found online, but he basically argues that if there are Gods they are so far beyond human beings that trying to make sense of their motives with our limited faculties is foolish, and imagining that they take an interest in our lives is hubris, so why worship?
_________________ "Better the occasional faults of a Government that lives in a spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a Government frozen in the ice of its own indifference."--FDR
Questioning why the gods let bad things happen when they have so much power
..."If the gods, Jupiter and the others, shake the skies With dreadful uproar, heaving fire around At each one's whim, why don't' they ever make Persons of criminal impulse, not averse To evildoing, breathe out fire, exhale Sulphur from riddled chests? That ought to teach them! Why are the blameless and the innocent-- With nothing on their consciences--involved, Wrapped in the fires of heaven, annihilated? Why aim at lonely places, waste their time Hurling at deserts? Are they practicing, Just warming up, just getting loose? And why Do they allow their father's weapon, Jove's, to blunt its point on the earth? Why, for that matter, Does he permit such nonsense, and not save The weapon for the his enemies?"
Good words.
I always fall back on William Peter Blatty's quote, and I'm paraphrasing,
"Imagine that you come into a world where there is not the slightest bit of physical or emotional suffering to either you or anyone. That's the world you're born into. Could you then... ever be honest? Could you ever be loyal? Could you ever be courageous? Patient? It's just not possible. The words would not exist. So this is the way the world has to be (suffering), in order for man to evolve, and reach his highest level."
I don't have time to type out the other passage I really like and am not a fan of the translation that he found online, but he basically argues that if there are Gods they are so far beyond human beings that trying to make sense of their motives with our limited faculties is foolish, and imagining that they take an interest in our lives is hubris, so why worship?
No worries. You're giving me more stuff I can look into.
And I'll tell you what made me tear up, and this doesn't have to be God related, was last night at the church vigil in Newtown, some guy stood at the podium and said,
"Yes, evil visited this town this morning. But right now, I see the 'good'. I see a community who came together to support each other. If they say there is no good in the world, I want them to see what I'm seeing."
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:02 am Posts: 44183 Location: New York Gender: Male
yeah, I'll fall hard for that kind of stuff every time.
In response I'd say this though,
I doubt very much the magnitude of what you and the others experienced there will ever come close to balancing the scales of what was taken from the lives of the victims. Evil acts give us the opportunity to do good, but when has the good ever outweighed the evil? And why should the victims have to suffer like they do so you could feel uplifted?
I am an atheist for a few reasons. One was that i decided that the idea of god just didn't make sense. And I used to feel superior to believers for seeing through the myths. Then I decided that made me a dick, and some of the smartest and wisest people I've ever known (as well as several of my political heroes) were sincere believers, and so I got over that. I don't believe, but I don't really think of myself as superior to those who don't anymore, nor would I want to interfere with the ways they cope with grief and infinity (I guess I'm doing that here, maybe, but this is a space that is also inviting this conversation).
But the problem of evil has long been a fundamental sticking point for me. Any god that couldn't stop it isn't God. Any god that would allow that isn't worth my worship, and any god whose logic exists beyond the moral comprehension and reasoning of man doesn't need it.
_________________ "Better the occasional faults of a Government that lives in a spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a Government frozen in the ice of its own indifference."--FDR
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