My mother (the buddhist) is a member of the Unitarian Universalist church. She has invited us a couple of time, but we have never gone. After reading up on their beliefs, I'm actually inclined to take my family to a "service" the next time she comes out. Here's a line from their Seven Principles: "Unitarian Universalism draws from many sources including humanist teachings which counsel us to heed the guidance of reason and the results of science." I like that!
Seems quite similar to Quakerism, ultimately a good thing.
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:21 am Posts: 23078 Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina Gender: Male
Harmless wrote:
There are Christians who believe that faith isn't faith without a healthy dose of agnosticism. I live as if there is a God, but I won't browbeat others into agreeing. If we stop searching, we grow stagnant.
‘Search’ is a church buzz-word. The actual action is to ‘walk’ in hope of stumbling on the miraculous.
_________________ For more insulated and ill-informed opinions, click here.
From my experience, I feel that I gain knowledge and appreciation for faith through episodes of misfortune and suffering. Even the great writers will tell you that (Faulkner, Dostoevsky, C.S. Lewis).
Yet, I still hear people ask the juvenile question, "If there is a God, why does he allow so much suffering?" If man's suffering didn't exist, how could your conscience grow? How could you learn to be patient, loyal, honest, courageous, kind?
I believe someone asked the notorious believer and conservative Ben Stein that same question and he answered just as childishly (and im paraphrasing), "People choose to disbelieve in God. We choose to reject Him. And like a true gentleman, God walks away."
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 2004 12:10 am Posts: 10993 Gender: Male
I Hail Randy Moss wrote:
From my experience, I feel that I gain knowledge and appreciation for faith through episodes of misfortune and suffering. Even the great writers will tell you that (Faulkner, Dostoevsky, C.S. Lewis).
Yet, I still hear people ask the juvenile question, "If there is a God, why does he allow so much suffering?" If man's suffering didn't exist, how could your conscience grow? How could you learn to be patient, loyal, honest, courageous, kind?
I believe someone asked the notorious believer and conservative Ben Stein that same question and he answered just as childishly (and im paraphrasing), "People choose to disbelieve in God. We choose to reject Him. And like a true gentleman, God walks away."
Joined: Tue Nov 30, 2004 4:02 am Posts: 44183 Location: New York Gender: Male
I Hail Randy Moss wrote:
Yet, I still hear people ask the juvenile question, "If there is a God, why does he allow so much suffering?" If man's suffering didn't exist, how could your conscience grow? How could you learn to be patient, loyal, honest, courageous, kind?
the problem of evil is not a childish question. It is the central question at the heart of any philosophic debate involving religious experience. That it is so obvious to people may say less about the 'childishness' of the question and more about the absurdity of the western conception of god (a unitary creator with omniscience, omnipotence, and perfectly good) . And your answer explains why you grow when someone breaks up with you, or that you might feel good if you volunteer to help someone. It hardly explains why people get painful terminal diseases (especially children), why people die in natural disasters, wars, mass murders, and all the rest.
There is also a horrible sort of solipsism behind the idea that other people have to suffer horribly so I can grow as a person, a turning of the rest of the world into a prop for my own internal psychodrama.
_________________ "Better the occasional faults of a Government that lives in a spirit of charity than the consistent omissions of a Government frozen in the ice of its own indifference."--FDR
Yet, I still hear people ask the juvenile question, "If there is a God, why does he allow so much suffering?" If man's suffering didn't exist, how could your conscience grow? How could you learn to be patient, loyal, honest, courageous, kind?
the problem of evil is not a childish question. It is the central question at the heart of any philosophic debate involving religious experience. That it is so obvious to people may say less about the 'childishness' of the question and more about the absurdity of the western conception of god (a unitary creator with omniscience, omnipotence, and perfectly good) . And your answer explains why you grow when someone breaks up with you, or that you might feel good if you volunteer to help someone. It hardly explains why people get painful terminal diseases (especially children), why people die in natural disasters, wars, mass murders, and all the rest.
There is also a horrible sort of solipsism behind the idea that other people have to suffer horribly so I can grow as a person, a turning of the rest of the world into a prop for my own internal psychodrama.
The problem of evil is not a childish question, but that question is, because there is little thought involved.
I'm not saying others have to suffer and I have to suffer in order for me to grow. I'm saying, that for me, it is the natural order of things. Suffering is an inevitable fact of life. Therefore, how do you and I respond to it? And I'm going off of my own personal experience. I am a stronger person today after all the emotional pains I went through and will continue to go through.
And I never think of anything on a mass level (genocide), but on an individual level. How does each person deal with the traumas in their life.
There are Christians who believe that faith isn't faith without a healthy dose of agnosticism. I live as if there is a God, but I won't browbeat others into agreeing. If we stop searching, we grow stagnant.
‘Search’ is a church buzz-word. The actual action is to ‘walk’ in hope of stumbling on the miraculous.
Semantics! 'Walk' is also a church buzzword and the property of the able-bodied.
But, I will add that I agree, Jorge. And it often frustrates me when people glorify the 'search' over providing some damn answers and theological convictions.
Joined: Wed Feb 22, 2006 1:37 am Posts: 2465 Location: A dark place
Harmless wrote:
But, I will add that I agree, Jorge. And it often frustrates me when people glorify the 'search' over providing some damn answers and theological convictions.
Why would someone's "search" frustrate you? I often get frustrated by those who label these kind of people as "flaky." At my father's deathbed, a relative was frustrated with me because he want to argue about religion. When I told him that I didn't really know what I believed, he seemed almost mad.
One man's "theological conviction" is another man's lie.
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But, I will add that I agree, Jorge. And it often frustrates me when people glorify the 'search' over providing some damn answers and theological convictions.
Why would someone's "search" frustrate you? I often get frustrated by those who label these kind of people as "flaky." At my father's deathbed, a relative was frustrated with me because he want to argue about religion. When I told him that I didn't really know what I believed, he seemed almost mad.
One man's "theological conviction" is another man's lie.
I didn't say that anyone's search frustrated me; I encourage anyone to search, actively and practically. I said that the buzzword 'search' is often used by people who are afraid to come down on an issue (like homophobia). I respect guys like Brian Mclaren a great deal, but his overly abstract language occasionally means that people are confused about what he thinks on such issues. If we're 'searching', we hope to find. But the concept of the journey, rather than the destination, is one of the best things to happen to theology in recent times, imo. It has made people reconsider the point of Christianity, which is not to proselytise and expect instant conversion but to demonstrate love and expect nothing. And that shiz.
Edit: also, the 'theological conviction' I was referring to is more moral, to do with social justice, than any doctrinal 'truth'. The former is necessary. We need to think about what moral messages we're giving out. The latter isn't very important.
Last edited by Harmless on Fri Aug 31, 2012 7:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2007 6:21 am Posts: 23078 Location: Buenos Aires, Argentina Gender: Male
Harmless wrote:
theplatypus wrote:
Harmless wrote:
There are Christians who believe that faith isn't faith without a healthy dose of agnosticism. I live as if there is a God, but I won't browbeat others into agreeing. If we stop searching, we grow stagnant.
‘Search’ is a church buzz-word. The actual action is to ‘walk’ in hope of stumbling on the miraculous.
Semantics! 'Walk' is also a church buzzword and the property of the able-bodied.
That's a quote from one of your poems!
_________________ For more insulated and ill-informed opinions, click here.
There are Christians who believe that faith isn't faith without a healthy dose of agnosticism. I live as if there is a God, but I won't browbeat others into agreeing. If we stop searching, we grow stagnant.
‘Search’ is a church buzz-word. The actual action is to ‘walk’ in hope of stumbling on the miraculous.
Semantics! 'Walk' is also a church buzzword and the property of the able-bodied.
Joined: Sun May 21, 2006 2:02 am Posts: 91597 Location: Sector 7-G
theplatypus wrote:
Harmless wrote:
There are Christians who believe that faith isn't faith without a healthy dose of agnosticism. I live as if there is a God, but I won't browbeat others into agreeing. If we stop searching, we grow stagnant.
‘Search’ is a church buzz-word. The actual action is to ‘walk’ in hope of stumbling on the miraculous.
Dude, that was mean.
_________________ It takes a big man to make a threat on the internet.
There are Christians who believe that faith isn't faith without a healthy dose of agnosticism. I live as if there is a God, but I won't browbeat others into agreeing. If we stop searching, we grow stagnant.
‘Search’ is a church buzz-word. The actual action is to ‘walk’ in hope of stumbling on the miraculous.
Dude, that was mean.
Pffft. Not bothered. They're shit drafts I made public because I was doing that NaPoWriMo thing. Anything good will get published, anything rubbish won't.
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