the players arent stopping themselves from being traded by any means. teams just wont trade for them if they wont sign an extension so its not really a case of the inmates running the asylum, its just how it works. you cant sign an employee to a contract for 5 years, then say in that 5th year we are going to trade you and you HAVE to sign an extension no questions asked
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:08 am Posts: 22978 Gender: Male
4/5 wrote:
Skitch Patterson wrote:
First of all, the "it's a league of superstars" thing is BS. Yes it is a league of superstars But letting players dictate what team they play for goes against the nature of a professional sports league. Yes it's superstars. But Jordan stayed with a Bulls team that was never that good before him. Duncan and Robinson were superstars in San Antonio. The 80's and 90's saw relatively consistent success (not always championships- but quality organizations with stars and even superstars) from (at varying times) Seattle, Portland, Golden State, Sacramento, Cleveland, Detroit, etc. It can be a league of superstars and not have ALL the superstars in LA, NY, Miami, Chicago and Boston.
Where the owners REALLY fucked up was allowing a CBA to be ratified without a Franchise player tag. The fact that these players are able (while still under contract) to force a trade to a specific team is absolutely awful for the league. Not only does it look like the "inmates running the asylum," it also kills ANY leverage the team has in trade negotiations to get a fair exchange. "I WILL NOT RESIGN IN BOSTON." So obviously by reducing the number of teams involved, the teams that are a desired destination have way too much leverage.
A franchise tag would have likely solved all of this.
I think you're mixing two ideas. I agree with a lot of your post, but I'd say that "it's a league of superstars" (and almost always has been) is very true. The true MYTH is the "large market vs. small market" dynamic that they keep talking about, as you have already pointed out the many exceptions.
I agree that its a league of superstars... but just because they are the superstars doesn't mean they should be able to dictate where they play to the degree that they do.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:08 am Posts: 22978 Gender: Male
Peeps wrote:
the players arent stopping themselves from being traded by any means. teams just wont trade for them if they wont sign an extension so its not really a case of the inmates running the asylum, its just how it works. you cant sign an employee to a contract for 5 years, then say in that 5th year we are going to trade you and you HAVE to sign an extension no questions asked
Any "sign an employee to a contract" comparison is, frankly, stupid. Ford doesn't trade an unhappy exec to Toyota. They leave after their contract expires and that's the end of that. Ford may have a slight decline in that division, but ultimately the product is the product. In professional sports the player IS the product. Players aren't just "employees."
Players are hurting themselves with these "ill accept a trade to..." PUBLIC demands. If I'm the New Jersey Nets and I know that only one other team is bidding on Dwight Howard and I really want Dwight Howard, I don't have to offer my best (or even a fair) package for him.. Because I KNOW i am going to get him one way or the other- because no one else is going to take him since he won't play there. When you hurt the leverage of the team dealing you, you hurt the ability of that team to deal you. My offer has to be far more when there are 10+ teams in the mix than just one.
Joined: Mon Feb 26, 2007 6:25 am Posts: 1486 Location: Illinois Gender: Male
So Dwight is mad the Magic never consulted him on player moves? Yeah dude, the should have definitely asked a clown with nothing more than a high school diploma who has shown NO willingness the improve his game to make himself great and not just an athletic freak what to do about personnel. If you look back to the 90's Dwight would not be able to keep up with the big men of that era. Those guys had complete games.
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:47 pm Posts: 9282 Location: Atlanta Gender: Male
verb_to_trust wrote:
So Dwight is mad the Magic never consulted him on player moves? Yeah dude, the should have definitely asked a clown with nothing more than a high school diploma who has shown NO willingness the improve his game to make himself great and not just an athletic freak what to do about personnel. If you look back to the 90's Dwight would not be able to keep up with the big men of that era. Those guys had complete games.
Shut up and play Dwight.
I'd say it's more that Dwight is mad he was drafted into Disney's toilet bowl. He wants to be a superstar, not Central Florida's most popular dining attraction.
Joined: Fri Sep 02, 2005 8:52 pm Posts: 2647 Location: Where gila monsters meet you at the airport
Skitch Patterson wrote:
Peeps wrote:
the players arent stopping themselves from being traded by any means. teams just wont trade for them if they wont sign an extension so its not really a case of the inmates running the asylum, its just how it works. you cant sign an employee to a contract for 5 years, then say in that 5th year we are going to trade you and you HAVE to sign an extension no questions asked
Any "sign an employee to a contract" comparison is, frankly, stupid. Ford doesn't trade an unhappy exec to Toyota. They leave after their contract expires and that's the end of that. Ford may have a slight decline in that division, but ultimately the product is the product. In professional sports the player IS the product. Players aren't just "employees."
Players are hurting themselves with these "ill accept a trade to..." PUBLIC demands. If I'm the New Jersey Nets and I know that only one other team is bidding on Dwight Howard and I really want Dwight Howard, I don't have to offer my best (or even a fair) package for him.. Because I KNOW i am going to get him one way or the other- because no one else is going to take him since he won't play there. When you hurt the leverage of the team dealing you, you hurt the ability of that team to deal you. My offer has to be far more when there are 10+ teams in the mix than just one.
Wait, so you're saying NBA players aren't particularly savvy?
the players arent stopping themselves from being traded by any means. teams just wont trade for them if they wont sign an extension so its not really a case of the inmates running the asylum, its just how it works. you cant sign an employee to a contract for 5 years, then say in that 5th year we are going to trade you and you HAVE to sign an extension no questions asked
Any "sign an employee to a contract" comparison is, frankly, stupid. Ford doesn't trade an unhappy exec to Toyota. They leave after their contract expires and that's the end of that. Ford may have a slight decline in that division, but ultimately the product is the product. In professional sports the player IS the product. Players aren't just "employees."
Players are hurting themselves with these "ill accept a trade to..." PUBLIC demands. If I'm the New Jersey Nets and I know that only one other team is bidding on Dwight Howard and I really want Dwight Howard, I don't have to offer my best (or even a fair) package for him.. Because I KNOW i am going to get him one way or the other- because no one else is going to take him since he won't play there. When you hurt the leverage of the team dealing you, you hurt the ability of that team to deal you. My offer has to be far more when there are 10+ teams in the mix than just one.
Wait, so you're saying NBA players aren't particularly savvy?
what he is failing to understand is that nobody is stopping a team from trading for anyone. just because paul wont sign an extension to play in milwaulkee does not mean he cant be traded to that team, it just means a team is less likely to do so without an assurance that he will sign.
it is every players right to say, you can trade for me, but theres a 99% probability that i wont resign with you and will weigh my options
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:08 am Posts: 22978 Gender: Male
Peeps wrote:
mray10 wrote:
Skitch Patterson wrote:
Peeps wrote:
the players arent stopping themselves from being traded by any means. teams just wont trade for them if they wont sign an extension so its not really a case of the inmates running the asylum, its just how it works. you cant sign an employee to a contract for 5 years, then say in that 5th year we are going to trade you and you HAVE to sign an extension no questions asked
Any "sign an employee to a contract" comparison is, frankly, stupid. Ford doesn't trade an unhappy exec to Toyota. They leave after their contract expires and that's the end of that. Ford may have a slight decline in that division, but ultimately the product is the product. In professional sports the player IS the product. Players aren't just "employees."
Players are hurting themselves with these "ill accept a trade to..." PUBLIC demands. If I'm the New Jersey Nets and I know that only one other team is bidding on Dwight Howard and I really want Dwight Howard, I don't have to offer my best (or even a fair) package for him.. Because I KNOW i am going to get him one way or the other- because no one else is going to take him since he won't play there. When you hurt the leverage of the team dealing you, you hurt the ability of that team to deal you. My offer has to be far more when there are 10+ teams in the mix than just one.
Wait, so you're saying NBA players aren't particularly savvy?
what he is failing to understand is that nobody is stopping a team from trading for anyone. just because paul wont sign an extension to play in milwaulkee does not mean he cant be traded to that team, it just means a team is less likely to do so without an assurance that he will sign.
it is every players right to say, you can trade for me, but theres a 99% probability that i wont resign with you and will weigh my options
No one is saying they CAN'T make that trade. But it would be foolish to do so.. and if the NBA adopted a franchise tag, then the players wouldn't have the leverage they do to deny trade destinations. Dont want me to trade you to Milwaukee even though they offered me the best trade? Well I'll just franchise you, and you aren't going to sign in LA, or NY. You're stuck here, in Memphis.
_________________ "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." -- John Steinbeck
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:36 pm Posts: 3271 Location: Chicago
The problem is, unlike basketball, it's more likely in baseball for a team to "rent" players at the deadline or during the season, knowing that they'll probably leave at the end of the year. In basketball, franchise players are so important to the fabric of the team and the organization as a whole, the team that has the franchise player feel they have a duty to take the chance by not trading him, praying that he will end up staying. Just like when Shaq left Orlando. It's really a simple supply and demand issue. The demand for a superstar is so high, it puts teams in an awful situation. If players just said, "im playing out my contract and will become a free agent at the end of the season" instead of "i want to be traded to this, this, and this team" it would be a lot easier for fans to move on from the situation.
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Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 3:08 am Posts: 22978 Gender: Male
pnjguy wrote:
The problem is, unlike basketball, it's more likely in baseball for a team to "rent" players at the deadline or during the season, knowing that they'll probably leave at the end of the year. In basketball, franchise players are so important to the fabric of the team and the organization as a whole, the team that has the franchise player feel they have a duty to take the chance by not trading him, praying that he will end up staying. Just like when Shaq left Orlando. It's really a simple supply and demand issue. The demand for a superstar is so high, it puts teams in an awful situation. If players just said, "im playing out my contract and will become a free agent at the end of the season" instead of "i want to be traded to this, this, and this team" it would be a lot easier for fans to move on from the situation.
The problem is, unlike basketball, it's more likely in baseball for a team to "rent" players at the deadline or during the season, knowing that they'll probably leave at the end of the year. In basketball, franchise players are so important to the fabric of the team and the organization as a whole, the team that has the franchise player feel they have a duty to take the chance by not trading him, praying that he will end up staying. Just like when Shaq left Orlando. It's really a simple supply and demand issue. The demand for a superstar is so high, it puts teams in an awful situation. If players just said, "im playing out my contract and will become a free agent at the end of the season" instead of "i want to be traded to this, this, and this team" it would be a lot easier for fans to move on from the situation.
NOT defending the whole The Decision debacle, but isn't this EXACTLY what LeBron did and got murdered for?
_________________ "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." -- John Steinbeck
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:36 pm Posts: 3271 Location: Chicago
4/5 wrote:
pnjguy wrote:
The problem is, unlike basketball, it's more likely in baseball for a team to "rent" players at the deadline or during the season, knowing that they'll probably leave at the end of the year. In basketball, franchise players are so important to the fabric of the team and the organization as a whole, the team that has the franchise player feel they have a duty to take the chance by not trading him, praying that he will end up staying. Just like when Shaq left Orlando. It's really a simple supply and demand issue. The demand for a superstar is so high, it puts teams in an awful situation. If players just said, "im playing out my contract and will become a free agent at the end of the season" instead of "i want to be traded to this, this, and this team" it would be a lot easier for fans to move on from the situation.
NOT defending the whole The Decision debacle, but isn't this EXACTLY what LeBron did and got murdered for?
If i remember correctly, he was pretty ambiguous about what he was going to do. I don't blame him because it was the first time people made a huge deal about something like this and i really don't think he knew what he was going to do but he left it open for discussion by not being clear. At the sametime, if the Cavs were not favorites to be the champs that year, he may have asked for a trade, so the circumstance was a bit different.
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