I thought I'd run this by the rest of the nerds here.

Your "ideal" traditional lineup usually goes as follows.

Leadoff:
A great speed guy with a high on-base percentage. Maybe your CF or a middle infielder. Kenny Lofton, Rickey Henderson, Ichiro type guys.

2nd:
Another high obp guy, with a little more pop in his swing. Speed is great to have here, but not essential either. Prototype is Robby Alomar/Paul Molitor

3rd:
Your best power+average hitter. Manny, Vlad, Pujols. Etc

4th:
Your masher. Teixera, etc

5th:
Another masher generally. Scott Rolenish

6th:
Kind of a crapshoot. Usually your next best remaining power guy. Vinny Castilla, Preston Wilson, Dave Henderson, etc.

7th:
Similar to your 2 hitter but not as good. Randy Winn is what i would have in mind.

8 and 9:
whatever is left. Maybe your catcher or middle infielders.


Now, we can pretty much agree that this is how the traditional lineup is filled out.
What about radically altering that. What about leading off a guy like Manny Ramirez? He gets on base a lot, and this gives him another chance to get runs in. Why not shuffle your lineup instead of having the strength all in a row so innings are harder to get out of?
Why don't teams like Tampa Bay or Milwaukee try this kind of stuff? Who knows what could happen. Has any manager flipped out and done it on a semi-regular basis?

I'm sure some folks have thought about it, but it's just not smart baseball. Manny is an RBI guy at heart, and it makes no sense to have him start the game off with no men on base... you've at least got to give him a shot to drive in some runs with men on base in the 1st.

I think it's done because it is a proven method that works when you've got the idea players for the system. If you don't have a masher, managers try all different sorts of things... I mean in general, the #4 and #1 guys are the only positions that don't change very often on lineup cards... other than that, guys are swapped all the time.

Yeah, I suppose there is the idea that it's a proven system.
What about shuffling guys around though? Having 2-3 weak hitters in a row just makes for an easy inning, especially in the NL. Maybe move your typical 5 guy down to 7 and your typical 8 up to 5. Just something to give more balance?

i think it gets switched around in small ways all the time. i also don't think it matters very much, if at all. the thing is, if it doesn't actually affect things all that much, why would a manager risk his job by doing something out of the ordinary? i wouldn't.

Im an NL guy, and I never liked how the 7-8-9 hitters usually completely blow on every team. Why cant there be better hitters in the 7 and 8 slots?

its probably tough in the 8th spot because they guy would just get pitched around to get to the pitcher, but thats a whole other thing...

why the fuck do pitchers completely suck at hitting? 95% look utterly pathetic with a bat. I mean, like they never swung a bat at any level including little league. Is it that hard to take some time in ST to learn a little bit about hitting? These are men after all, why must they look like a 7 yr old girl swinging a bat?

best hitting pitchers ive seen are Fernando, Doc Gooden, and Dreifort. just off the top of my head.

Dreifort absolutely mashed in college.

Have you not seen Hampton?

I think one of the cruel pleasures of the world is watching either Ben Sheets or Al Leiter try to hit a hard slider.

doesnt hampton lead all active pitchers in HRs?

Ill never forget Drief's performance in that college WS game.

Fernando used to pinch hit all the time for LA. Hershiser too could hit, he got a key rbi in game 7 vs the mets on a fake bunt, slap hit....

i think he does. Jason Marquis is a good hitter too. So is Brooks Kieschnick, who was as good as Dreifort was in college at both.

Pitchers for the most part aren't good hitters for one reason: they don't need to be. Middle infielders are the same way a lot of times, mostly in the past, but still in some cases.

1. Ichiro
2. Roberts
3. Pujols
4. Vlad
5. Tejada
6. Dunn
7. I. Rodriguez
8. A-Rod
9. D. Ortiz (DH)/Wood (P)

Ichiro, circa 2004, is the ultimate "get on base" guy. Roberts just has a crazy OPS, then you've got two guys on base that can steal as needed. Pujols is insane, you don't hit 45 HR every year and hit .330, but he does. Vlad goes 4th because if SOMEHOW those three guys get on base with no runs, you call the hit and run because he can hit anything from his shoetops to his scalp that doesn't hit him or lie out of reach for his bat. Tejada is a pure RBI machine in case there's any outs from the last two guys, Dunn is the ultimate clean up guy, but walks a lot too so he keeps the inning going (if he doesn't K), and is going to see strikes so that they don't have to get to the 30 - .300 hitter that is Pudge. Then you've got A-Rod, who will get pitched to because nobody wants to see Big Papi up there, but they can't exactly go around him either because they're going to get a slap base hit out of Ichiro next and start the whole process over. Kerry Wood is one of the best hitting pitchers I've seen, so I give him the nod. That's a meat grinder of a lineup.

ichiro isn't close to "the ultimate on base guy." and why you think pudge is a 30 home run threat is puzzling. also, i'd at least rather have jeff kent or marcus giles over brian roberts.

i'd take roberts over kent for the stolen bases..especially in the 2 hole, and i'll get my power from other positions

with a lineup like that it'd be retarded to try to steal very often.

I seem to remember Lou Pinella (who else) trying a variation of mixing up the lineup at one point while he was with the Mariners. Nothing too extreme, but bunching the lineup into groups of three.

1. Speed/High OBP
2. Solid hitter
3. Masher

4. Speed/High OBP
5. Solid hitter
6. Masher

7. Speed/High OBP
8. Solid hitter
9. Masher

The logic was that a team's only guaranteed to start one inning with their lineup in the ideal order. This cluster system was supposed to increase the odds of sustaining innings. I don't really remember the results, but I've seen variations on this theme since.


I'd add that they need to be able to put the bat on the ball (i.e. not swing and miss at pitches). In addition to getting on base, one of their primary jobs is to move the leadoff batter over. Maybe hit and runs and definitely making solid outs by hitting the ball to the right side of the diamond. Being left-handed isn't a must, but you see a lot of switch hitters and spray hitters that are comfortable going the other way.


I've also seen quite a few leadoff type guys hit in the 9 hole. Maybe guys with great speed, but not the best OBP. If the number 8 hitter is the final out (which they often are), putting a fast guy in at 9 will ensure the bases won't get clogged up if he gets on leading off the next inning.

Adam Dunn is a great 5 hole guy. Jason Bay 3 or 4.

Marcus Giles is what I want in a 2 slot. Not necessarily HR's but the guy hits gaps and hits them hard, tons of extra base hits and he's got decent speed.

Soriano is a good 2 slot guy too I think.

yup, I'm sure there are better ways to set up a lineup that haven't been explored yet. When you think about it, a lineup is basically a way of distributing playing time. So why not bat your best hitters leadoff or in the #2 spot - regardless of speed or whatever.

well, this whole discussion is pretty much fictional and unrealistic anyway, so i'd steal all day because it's fun

i'd just pitch andy pettitte against you and pick you off all day.

and have pudge at catcher.

i'd have bagwell at first just to have fun watching him try to throw it to second.

i don't need that big of a lead