I'm talking strictly UFC here and not MMA overall. There hasn't been a fighter in the octagon who has built a resume as impressive as Hughes'. Liddell may "out-career" him eventually, but Hughes remains the best ever as of now.
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:30 am Posts: 6116 Location: NC
inadvertent imitation wrote:
Kev's got it, Couture's the man.
Hughes is a close second, but his days are numbered.
I'd also throw Royce's name into the hat for pioneering the sport, And Tito for being a very dominate champion and beating more impressive competition than Hughes has during his title reign.
And I hate to be that guy, But i've gotta say... This is a valid discussion, but it's kind of like asking who you think is the best team in Triple A, when you've got MLB standing right next to it. UFC fighters are not on the same level as most of the Pride guys. UFC may have the welterweight division, but the dominance Pride would show in HW, LHW, and LW categories is ridiculous.
And I hate to be that guy, But i've gotta say... This is a valid discussion, but it's kind of like asking who you think is the best team in Triple A, when you've got MLB standing right next to it. UFC fighters are not on the same level as most of the Pride guys. UFC may have the welterweight division, but the dominance Pride would show in HW, LHW, and LW categories is ridiculous.
And every league should end with a Bob Sapp superfight!
I feel like MMA doesn't get it's due on this board. To me, it's the most natural, physical, and true sport there is.
It is the greatest sport on earth without a doubt.
Couture is my all-time favortie, but it is absurd to put him ahead of Hughes. Let's compare:
Matt Hughes UFC record: 14-2 (42-4 overall MMA)
Championships: 2x welterweight
Title defenses: 7 (including 5 consecutive and two "non title" bouts with Gracie and Riggs)
Title fight record: 9-1
Notable wins: Carlos Newton (twice), Sean Shirk, Frank Trigg (twice), BJ Penn, Joe Riggs, Royce Gracie, Georges St. Pierre
Losses: BJ Penn, Dennis Hallman (still makes me cringe)
Randy Couture UFC record: 12-5 (14-8 overall MMA)
Championships: 2x heavyweight, 2x light-heavyweight
Title defenses: 3 (only 2 consecutive)
Title fight record: 7-5
Notable wins: Vitor Belfort (twice), Mo Smith, Kevin Randleman, Pedro Rizzo (twice), Chuck Liddell, Tito Ortiz
Losses: Liddell (twice), Josh Barnett, Ricco Rodriguez, Vitor Belfort
Randy Couture won UFC titles in two different weight classes (two times each) which is very impressive. The difference between Hughes and Couture is that Hughes has had the most impressive title reign of any UFC champion. I mean, look at Couture's title fight record; 7-5. His wins over Liddell and Ortiz are legendary in their own right, but he never established himself as the dominant figure that Hughes has. When you think UFC welterweight champions, there hasn't been anyone remotely close to being as dominant as Hughes. No UFC fighter has had 7 title defenses and the only other fighter to have 5 consecutive is Tito Ortiz. I'm saying...if you go by the numbers, it is definitely Hughes. But Couture is my boy, don't get me wrong.
And I hate to be that guy, But i've gotta say... This is a valid discussion, but it's kind of like asking who you think is the best team in Triple A, when you've got MLB standing right next to it. UFC fighters are not on the same level as most of the Pride guys. UFC may have the welterweight division, but the dominance Pride would show in HW, LHW, and LW categories is ridiculous.
I disagree with your analogy. UFC is still the most prestigious MMA promotion in America, which would make it the equivalent to the MLB. Triple A would be something like KOTC. This isn't to say PRIDE isn't better, however.
PRIDE heavyweights fucking destroy UFC heavies. The UFC heavy division is laughable. Tim Sylvia vs. Jeff Monson next month? Haha...what the hell is that?
It's unfair to compare the welterweights since PRIDE doesn't have a division, and it is also unfair to compare LWs since UFC's light division is only just resurfacing.
PRIDE's LHW division definitely has more depth, but I'd be interested in seeing who would in a fight with the top 3 in each promotion:
1. Liddell vs. Wandy
2. Shogun vs. Babalu/Ortiz (Babalu has beaten Shogun, Ortiz has beaten Wandy)
3. Arona vs. Babalu/Ortiz
That being said, PRIDE's #4 and 5 (Noguiera and Overeem) would absolutely anniholate UFC's 4 and 5, which sadly looks to be Griffin and Evans at this point.
For middleweights...as far as PRIDE/UFC goes, Franklin and Silva are #1 and 2. What the UFC needs to do is get Matt Landland's ass back in there to fight Franklin. I'm pretty sure he isn't under a long-term contract with anyone right now.
All in all...PRIDE is definitely deeper and has, without question, superior heavyweights. But the best of the best at each weight of the UFC can probably still beat the top PRIDE guys. BJ Penn did defeat Gomi a few years back at lighttweight...so the UFC needs a little time to establish who is actually in that weight class. I think the UFC lightweight division is goigng to be killer soon. With all respet to Kenny Florian, the only reason they are putting him in the title fight tomorrow night is so that Sherk can be their champion. There is no way in hell he is a #1 contender.
Last edited by mowbs on Sat Oct 14, 2006 12:13 am, edited 3 times in total.
It's just that I'm kind of surprised it is still considered an MMA event when it is all stand-up and no grappling. If K-1 fights go down on a professional's fight record, then why don't BJJ tournaments of the highest level?
Joined: Sat Feb 12, 2005 6:30 am Posts: 6116 Location: NC
mowbs wrote:
PRIDE heavyweights fucking destroy UFC heavies. The UFC heavy division is laughable. Tim Sylvia vs. Jeff Monson next month? Haha...what the hell is that?
It's more than laughable, ever since Arlovski somehow lost to Sylvia twice. I'm praying he gets himself back on track, because he is the only one at this point who can do anything to make the UFC's HW division look like anything more than a joke. I wish Aleksander would come over to the UFC. Him vs. Sylvia would be an interesting fight.
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PRIDE's LHW division definitely has more depth, but I'd be interested in seeing who would in a fight with the top 3 in each promotion: 1. Liddell vs. Wandy 2. Shogun vs. Babalu/Ortiz (Babalu has beaten Shogun, Ortiz has beaten Wandy) 3. Arona vs. Babalu/Ortiz That being said, PRIDE's #4 and 5 (Noguiera and Overeem) would absolutely anniholate UFC's 4 and 5, which sadly looks to be Griffin and Evans at this point.
A healthy Wandy would beat Chuck, no doubt in my mind. He's a monster, who got dominated by a guy a weightclass above him in Crocop. And keep in mind, Crocop is an absolute beast. Probably #2 HW in the world. A Shogun/Babalu fight would be more interesting than a Shogun/Tito fight in my opinion. Tito wouldn't stand a chance, but Babalu's ground skills might prove to be an obstacle for him. Shogun is only getting better though. Arona vs. Tito/Babalu would be two fights where I wouldn't be able to pick a winner.
And as good as lil nog and Overeem are, I've gotta give credit to the UFC's 4 and 5 at this point. Evans is improving at an incredible rate. He'll get a title shot eventually, and I wouldn't be surprised to see him win it. And Forrest. Well, Forrest is something else. He's improving with every fight. He looked alot more technically sound in the 2nd Bonnar fight, but they match up so well, it was hard for him to put Bonnar away. Not to mention the Tito fight. I'm not buying into the torn ACL stuff at all. Forrest dominated him in the last 2 rounds of the fight, and it should've been his.
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For middleweights...as far as PRIDE/UFC goes, Franklin and Silva are #1 and 2. What the UFC needs to do is get Matt Landland's ass back in there to fight Franklin. I'm pretty sure he isn't under a long-term contract with anyone right now.
Umm... Henderson? He may not be the most exciting fighter in the world, but I'd have my money on him over Franklin or Silva anyday. Matt Lindland is another thing though, and I hope UFC picks him up, just so I can see more of him.
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All in all...PRIDE is definitely deeper and has, without question, superior heavyweights. But the best of the best at each weight of the UFC can probably still beat the top PRIDE guys. BJ Penn did defeat Gomi a few years back at lighttweight...so the UFC needs a little time to establish who is actually in that weight class. I think the UFC lightweight division is goigng to be killer soon. With all respet to Kenny Florian, the only reason they are putting him in the title fight tomorrow night is so that Sherk can be their champion. There is no way in hell he is a #1 contender.
As stated earlier in the thread, I'm a huge BJ fan... and I really hope he moves down to LW. Nobody would be able to compete with him. But as for right now, neither Sherk nor Florian can compete with Gomi. This week though, I think Florian will put up more of a fight to Sherk than people are expecting, but Sherk is probably too strong for him.
i have no clue...but i was watching last week sometime, and i saw that shamrock guy talk a lot of shit and get pinned or tapped out or whatever within less than a minute..for the second time in a row...i thought it was funny
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:30 pm Posts: 7110 Location: the Zoo.
Shamrock's a founding father of MMA in the United States. He's a shell of his former self and he's made himself look like a joke in the past 3 or 4 years, which is a shame.
Shamrock's a founding father of MMA in the United States. He's a shell of his former self and he's made himself look like a joke in the past 3 or 4 years, which is a shame.
which is what ive heard...because what i saw last week was an old guy trying to fight a young guy...just didnt work
I watched Ortiz/Shamrock III with a couple of friends who basically know Shamrock better (like most people do) from his pro wrestling days. They kind of chuckled at the fact that he had eleven losses and were mocking his "world's most dangerous man" nickname.
Sure...the competition was different back when he was in his prime, but Ken was the guy to beat. There is a reason the first UFC superfight was between him and Gracie. 26-12-2 may not look too impressive, but people have to realize that he was 23-5-2 before he made the decision to dedicate himself entirely to pro wrestling for three years, and we all know who really won those "draws" with Gracie and Taktarov. 23-5-2 (25-5 in my book) is a good MMA record no matter how the hell you look at it, especially for a guy who pretty much insisted on facing the best competition, even in his return to MMA in 2000, where he suffered 7 of the 12 losses of his career. It's no skin off his ass and he hasn't ruined his legacy with a silly feud. Since he made the move from pro wrestling back to MMA six years ago, he has faced Fujita, Frye, Ortiz, Kimo, Franklin and Sakuraba. God damn that's a hell of a list for a 36-42 year old guy who had done more pro wrestling than MMA in his life.
He was one of the first true hybrid fighters who comibined submission, wrestling and boxing skills in a time where MMA fighters were very one-dimensional.
Why does everyone think that Wanderlei Silva is unstoppable? And no, I'm not merely using the Cro Cop loss as a way of disagreeing (although, Wandy did out-weigh him in that fight).
Don't get me wrong, he's one of the best LHW in the world, but it seems like everyone I talk to thinks there is no way Liddell would be able to beat him. Unfortunately, we'll never know.
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