Yeah Tampa, Toronto, Milwaukee, Colorado--all say go fuck yourself.

I hate the small payroll excuse for losing.

2010 WS: Texas (28th) v San Fran (9th)
09: New York (1st) v (7th)
08: Tampa (28th) v Philly (12th)
07: Boston (2nd) v Colorado (25)
06: Detroit (14th) v St Louis (11th)
05: Chicago (13th) v Houston (12th)
04: Boston (2nd) v St Louis (9th)
03: New York (1st) v Florida (24th)
02: Anaheim (16) v San Francisco (10th)
01: New York (1st) v Arizona (8th)

In the last 10 years 10 teams, half of those who made it to the world series, were in the top 10 in terms of payrolls. But 7 teams, 35% were in the middle 10. And 3 teams made it to the world series being in the bottom ten spenders of the league. So sure, spending more money than anyone else certainly helps, but that's always going to be the case. But when half the teams who made it to the WS in the last decade were NOT in the top 10 in terms of payroll for their season, it kind of throws the "too poor to win" argument right out the window.

Source: http://www.baseball-reference.com/leagu ... misc.shtml

Damnit, Mickey.

Yeah, and detroit has a better record than Colorado, toronto and tied with tampa
Cleveland currently has a record better than all 4 of them.

the AL west, and NL west are both more "backing in" than the AL central.

This year, yes. Last ten years, nope.

Chicago Won the World Series in 05. The Tigers (one of 2 central teams that year) in '06 made the world series. The Tribe won their divisional series and almost beat the red sox.

The AL central has held their own as much as the AL West or the NL east the past ten years. They aren't the strongest division in the league, but the AL West has continually been worse.

Regular Seasons
2010- Minnesota 4 games better than AL West Champ. Also Better than the NL West and NL Central champs.
2009- Backed in.
2008- CWS Backed in the AL, but the Dodgers were 5 games worse to win the NL West with 84 wins.
2007- Cleveland had the best record in baseball.
2006- MN and Det- 2nd and 3rd best record in the AL. (3rd and 4th overall)
2005- CWS best record in the AL, 2nd best in baseball
2004- Backed in.
2003- Backed in
2002- Backed in.

So the beginning of the decade they were backing in, but starting in 2005, the AL central has been as competitive as any division in baseball, outside the AL East.

i mainly take exception to the phrase "backing in." skitch, i think i'm on your side, but saying the twins backed into the playoffs in 09 is ridiculous. they were 7 back in september and once again without justin morneau for its entirety. they caught your club in the final weekend of the season and then won game 163 in 12 innings. yes, they got trounced in the playoffs, but they didn't back in. i can't remember 02-04 so hot, but i doubt we backed in then either. anyway, go yanks and sox! here in the midwest we are in complete awe of the different level you play on. i'm just relieved none of the championships you've accumulated in recent years have been at all tainted by admitted steroid users. we would probably be let down considerably if that were the case.

2002 - Yankees 103 wins, Oakland 103, Anaheim 99, Twins 94. Did they back in? Red Sox and Mariners had 93 wins. No.
2003 - Yankees 101, Oakland 96, Boston 95, Seattle 93, Twins 90. Did they back in? Seattle didn't make the playoffs. Yes.
2004 - Yankees 104, Boston 98, Twins 92, Anaheim 92. Did they back in? Oakland had 91 wins. No.
2010 - This year wasn't mentioned. Rays had 96, Yanks 95, Twins 94, and the Rangers "backed into" the ws with 90.

Add all this to Skitch's earlier post. If a team makes the playoffs in the current system, they probably belong there. I fully admit, my club has shit the bed every year in the playoffs over the last 10 years, but line their rosters up position by position against the teams that took them out (see Yankees). They shouldn't win. You can say Texas did it, but what you mean is Cliff Lee did it. Carl Pavano wasn't up to that task. If you're unlucky enough that you meet Detroit after they back in this fall, enjoy Verlander.

You can be tired of the money argument if you like, but Cliff Lee would probably still be in the AL Central if it wasn't an issue. So would Sabbathia, Greinke, Santana. And where did David Ortiz, Manny Ramirez, Johnny Damon come from? That's just the AL Central. Did Tex, Schilling, and A-Rod all come up through the AL East farm system? I don't mind you guys supporting your teams and thinking you're awesome because your teams genuinely fucking are awesome, but I hate that you act as if it's because of anything other than having more money. If baseball or life was fair, Cleveland would be dominating again this year while the rest of the AL Central teams watched the AL East teams back into the playoffs.

I never said more money doesn't help you, of course it does. Top talent commands top dollar so the teams that spend the most are theoretically going to be the best teams and therefor will win. But numbers don't lie, and my previous posts clearly shows that people that lament never winning because of payroll problems should probably be looking at other aspects of their ballclub as well.

chud, i agree that there are other factors beyond payroll. looking at the team i watch every year, it's safe to say they get a case of the lebronx (see how clever i am) every time they meet the yanks in the postseason. 2010 was as deflating a postseason as i have experienced, and when the yanks swept us again, i didn't blame it on payroll. our guys just came up small. my original beef was with mickey's post that said the al central team would back in. that's bullshit. whoever comes out of this division will have earned their spot. if they don't represent the al in november, it doesn't mean they didn't belong in the playoffs. so i guess my contention is with mickey, but he appears to have his hands full with bateman at the moment.

It does when you spend the summer beating up on the Royals and the Indians or the Royals and the Tigers and still have a worse record than third place in the AL East. Earned their spot? Man, must be tough facing down Verlander and, uh, some other guys, who I'm sure are really good despite the fact I've never heard of them. Probably as good as Lester and Beckett and Sabathia and Price and Shields and Buckholz. For however "strong" the best team in your division is, it still doesn't excuse the fact that you have, consistently, 36 games against two of the worst teams in the AL, and you still manage to barely scrape into the playoffs over more deserving teams. This doesn't happen every year, but it happens enough, which is why realignment is necessary. It's not necessarily a knock on your POS teams, but feel free to take it as such.

"despite the fact ive never heard of them"
That proves nothing but the east coast bias of the sports media, especially baseball. The fact is, a lot of those years that teams backed in, or had 36 games against "2 of the worst teams in the AL" also had games against Sabathia, Lee, Greinke, Buehrle, Verlander and as many dominant pitchers as the AL East has sported at times as well. And no one is claiming that the AL central is as good as the AL east consistantly. But the AL West Has had Seattle and Oakland to beat up on for years (and texas for a lot of them). The NL east has had the Nationals and the Marlins. The NL West has beat up on the Dbacks, the Padres and the Giants at different times. The Central? The Pirates, The reds, the cubs and the Astros have all been pretty bad at times. The AL east is the abberation here, in large part due to its money, with its consistency.

Let's all be honest here, the AL Central isn't the problem, its the entire National League that's terrible.

I don't know where you got the idea that I wanted to have a fair, open-minded debate based on factual evidence, but I can assure you, that is not the case.

Unemployed lawyer post.

So, if the MLB re-aligns, can Colorado join the AL Central? Please?

Here's a fun fact. The White Sox have not lost an Interleague series in 2 years. They have won 17 in a row.

I wouldn't be surprised if most AL teams have a similar stat.