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 Post subject: Re: will he be a hall of famer?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:04 pm 
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Peeps wrote:
hines ward?

im on the fence. his numbers are solid, but not spectacular. very consistent though. plus he pretty much defined the blocking wide receiver.
This is the deciding reason why he should be in. Same with Rod Smith.


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 Post subject: Re: will he be a hall of famer?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:06 pm 
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i feel like Kurt Warner earned it in his last year.

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 Post subject: Re: will he be a hall of famer?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 3:20 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
Moss's numbers scream Hall of Fame, but it can't be forgotten how often he flat out quit on teams. That should also be taken into account.


Nick, I'm surprised you among all the people on this board feel this way. I'm not sure how you can quantify something like that to consider it when evaluating potential HOFers. It's a slippery slope and, IMHO, one that should be avoided. I think the numbers themselves should be the ones to speak for themselves.


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 Post subject: Re: will he be a hall of famer?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:03 pm 
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Chris_H_2 wrote:
Green Habit wrote:
Moss's numbers scream Hall of Fame, but it can't be forgotten how often he flat out quit on teams. That should also be taken into account.
Nick, I'm surprised you among all the people on this board feel this way. I'm not sure how you can quantify something like that to consider it when evaluating potential HOFers. It's a slippery slope and, IMHO, one that should be avoided. I think the numbers themselves should be the ones to speak for themselves.
There are plenty of qualities that aren't quantified, yet should be taken to account. Peeps and I just talked about Hines Ward. There isn't a way to determine how many of his blocks led to huge plays for the rest of the Steelers, yet it's well established that he excels in that department and is a big reason why the Steelers were still successful. Others might include how well offensive linemen run block, or how excellent cornerbacks may not have a lot of INTs and tackles because no one throws at them.


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 Post subject: Re: will he be a hall of famer?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:12 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
Chris_H_2 wrote:
Green Habit wrote:
Moss's numbers scream Hall of Fame, but it can't be forgotten how often he flat out quit on teams. That should also be taken into account.
Nick, I'm surprised you among all the people on this board feel this way. I'm not sure how you can quantify something like that to consider it when evaluating potential HOFers. It's a slippery slope and, IMHO, one that should be avoided. I think the numbers themselves should be the ones to speak for themselves.
There are plenty of qualities that aren't quantified, yet should be taken to account. Peeps and I just talked about Hines Ward. There isn't a way to determine how many of his blocks led to huge plays for the rest of the Steelers, yet it's well established that he excels in that department and is a big reason why the Steelers were still successful. Others might include how well offensive linemen run block, or how excellent cornerbacks may not have a lot of INTs and tackles because no one throws at them.


Right, but with Ward, the offensive linemen, or d-back examples you used, you're talking about qualities related to in-game play and performance, not an intangible like the Moss example you used.


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 Post subject: Re: will he be a hall of famer?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:18 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
Peeps wrote:
hines ward?

im on the fence. his numbers are solid, but not spectacular. very consistent though. plus he pretty much defined the blocking wide receiver.
This is the deciding reason why he should be in. Same with Rod Smith.

With both Ward and Smith I'd say no. If Reed and Carter aren't in there's NO WAY those two guys should get in. Then the next generation of WRs you have Moss, TO, Harrison, among others, and I don't think either of them beat any of those guys either.

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 Post subject: Re: will he be a hall of famer?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:23 pm 
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Chris_H_2 wrote:
Green Habit wrote:
Chris_H_2 wrote:
Green Habit wrote:
Moss's numbers scream Hall of Fame, but it can't be forgotten how often he flat out quit on teams. That should also be taken into account.
Nick, I'm surprised you among all the people on this board feel this way. I'm not sure how you can quantify something like that to consider it when evaluating potential HOFers. It's a slippery slope and, IMHO, one that should be avoided. I think the numbers themselves should be the ones to speak for themselves.
There are plenty of qualities that aren't quantified, yet should be taken to account. Peeps and I just talked about Hines Ward. There isn't a way to determine how many of his blocks led to huge plays for the rest of the Steelers, yet it's well established that he excels in that department and is a big reason why the Steelers were still successful. Others might include how well offensive linemen run block, or how excellent cornerbacks may not have a lot of INTs and tackles because no one throws at them.
Right, but with Ward, the offensive linemen, or d-back examples you used, you're talking about qualities related to in-game play and performance, not an intangible like the Moss example you used.
I think what I said about Moss relates to in-game play. For example, when he wasn't making an effort on his routes, he was negatively impacting his team's performance. It's a closer call with someone like Terrell Owens, who, even though he fractured locker rooms as a bad teammate, at least he gave his all on the field.

I'm guessing we're in agreement that truly off-field matters should be ignored. For example, if Plaxico Burress had HOF qualities otherwise he shouldn't be demerited because of the gun crimes he committed.


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 Post subject: Re: will he be a hall of famer?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:28 pm 
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4/5 wrote:
Green Habit wrote:
Peeps wrote:
hines ward?

im on the fence. his numbers are solid, but not spectacular. very consistent though. plus he pretty much defined the blocking wide receiver.
This is the deciding reason why he should be in. Same with Rod Smith.
With both Ward and Smith I'd say no. If Reed and Carter aren't in there's NO WAY those two guys should get in. Then the next generation of WRs you have Moss, TO, Harrison, among others, and I don't think either of them beat any of those guys either.
I agree that Reed and Carter should be the next WRs in--hell, they should already be in.

This also brings up another feature of the Pro Football Hall of Fame that is silly: the waiting periods and maximum enshrinees per year. If those didn't exist I'd be fine with getting Moss in there, but since it does exist I think he's got to get well back in line.


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 Post subject: Re: will he be a hall of famer?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:32 pm 
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I keep reading this thread's title as 'will beer hall of famer?'

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 Post subject: Re: will he be a hall of famer?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 4:58 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
4/5 wrote:
Green Habit wrote:
Peeps wrote:
hines ward?

im on the fence. his numbers are solid, but not spectacular. very consistent though. plus he pretty much defined the blocking wide receiver.
This is the deciding reason why he should be in. Same with Rod Smith.
With both Ward and Smith I'd say no. If Reed and Carter aren't in there's NO WAY those two guys should get in. Then the next generation of WRs you have Moss, TO, Harrison, among others, and I don't think either of them beat any of those guys either.
I agree that Reed and Carter should be the next WRs in--hell, they should already be in.

This also brings up another feature of the Pro Football Hall of Fame that is silly: the waiting periods and maximum enshrinees per year. If those didn't exist I'd be fine with getting Moss in there, but since it does exist I think he's got to get well back in line.

Wow. I mean I get that he may have dogged it at times, but for the better part of a decade he was the most feared offensive threat in The League.

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 Post subject: Re: will he be a hall of famer?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:34 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
I think what I said about Moss relates to in-game play. For example, when he wasn't making an effort on his routes, he was negatively impacting his team's performance. It's a closer call with someone like Terrell Owens, who, even though he fractured locker rooms as a bad teammate, at least he gave his all on the field.


But with someone like Moss and his ridiculous numbers, I'm not certain how quantifying effort (or lack thereof) would ever enter the equation. It's not like he's (or I don't think he is) borderline, is he?


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 Post subject: Re: will he be a hall of famer?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:40 pm 
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Chris_H_2 wrote:
Green Habit wrote:
I think what I said about Moss relates to in-game play. For example, when he wasn't making an effort on his routes, he was negatively impacting his team's performance. It's a closer call with someone like Terrell Owens, who, even though he fractured locker rooms as a bad teammate, at least he gave his all on the field.
But with someone like Moss and his ridiculous numbers, I'm not certain how quantifying effort (or lack thereof) would ever enter the equation. It's not like he's (or I don't think he is) borderline, is he?
No, I think when it's all said and done, he will and should be in. But as I said to 4/5, due to the current procedures, I would put others in before him.


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 Post subject: Re: will he be a hall of famer?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 5:47 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
Chris_H_2 wrote:
Green Habit wrote:
I think what I said about Moss relates to in-game play. For example, when he wasn't making an effort on his routes, he was negatively impacting his team's performance. It's a closer call with someone like Terrell Owens, who, even though he fractured locker rooms as a bad teammate, at least he gave his all on the field.
But with someone like Moss and his ridiculous numbers, I'm not certain how quantifying effort (or lack thereof) would ever enter the equation. It's not like he's (or I don't think he is) borderline, is he?
No, I think when it's all said and done, he will and should be in. But as I said to 4/5, due to the current procedures, I would put others in before him.


Another consideration is how, prior to the rule changes impacting pass interference calls (I think it was around 2004/5), d-backs were able to mug WR's without drawing flags. Today, it's a little easier to put up the ridiculous numbers we're seeing, particularly when offenses are throwing the ball over 55% of the time. I'm wondering if that will be considered for that crop of WR's that are or who will soon be HOF eligible.


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 Post subject: Re: will he be a hall of famer?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:31 pm 
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Chris_H_2 wrote:
Another consideration is how, prior to the rule changes impacting pass interference calls (I think it was around 2004/5), d-backs were able to mug WR's without drawing flags. Today, it's a little easier to put up the ridiculous numbers we're seeing, particularly when offenses are throwing the ball over 55% of the time. I'm wondering if that will be considered for that crop of WR's that are or who will soon be HOF eligible.

It has to be. Just like the fact that a record like Marino's 5,084 yards stood for 31 years and then 3 guys will probably break it at once. There's obviously more at play than all three simply being better than him. QBs, and all offensive numbers really, have to be judged on a totally separate metric pre and post-2004ish. And perhaps even more so post-2010.

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 Post subject: Re: will he be a hall of famer?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:43 pm 
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tim tebow?

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 Post subject: Re: will he be a hall of famer?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 7:51 pm 
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dkfan9 wrote:
tim tebow?

lock

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 Post subject: Re: will he be a hall of famer?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:16 pm 
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I just don't get how people can say no on Kurt Warner.

Another thing I was thinking about in relation to Hester and the "26 plays" argument is that it's been proven that he effects field position on the vast majority of kickoffs and punts and this has led to the Bears being near the top of the league in starting FP nearly every year. So it's not as though he's only had an impact on 26 plays.

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 Post subject: Re: will he be a hall of famer?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:29 pm 
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Orpheus wrote:
I just don't get how people can say no on Kurt Warner.
Warner's career was just so schizophrenic that it seems to scrambles people's minds. I know that I struggle with it as well.

Those 1999-2001 seasons were just so dominant, as well as his final Super Bowl run. But the stretch in between was horrid. He had to deal with injuries, the politics of Eli Manning, and the idiocy of Dennis Green. But does that answer it all? Damn good questions for the committee to consider.


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 Post subject: Re: will he be a hall of famer?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 10:40 pm 
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Well that is where I think we have to decide if actual "notability" has anything to do with it, which I think it should. Is Joe Namath in the Hall of Fame purely based on stats? Hell no. It's his white shoes, his SB guarantee, being in the first MNF game, and all those other things, combined with how he actually played. Kurt Warner deserves to make the Hall largely because of his unconventional path throughout the league. He is one of the most interesting stories and at times one of the most dominating players in the history of the NFL.

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 Post subject: Re: will he be a hall of famer?
PostPosted: Tue Dec 06, 2011 11:27 pm 
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Orpheus wrote:
Well that is where I think we have to decide if actual "notability" has anything to do with it, which I think it should. Is Joe Namath in the Hall of Fame purely based on stats? Hell no. It's his white shoes, his SB guarantee, being in the first MNF game, and all those other things, combined with how he actually played. Kurt Warner deserves to make the Hall largely because of his unconventional path throughout the league. He is one of the most interesting stories and at times one of the most dominating players in the history of the NFL.



Times have changed though. The Narrative isn't enough to get in the Hall, especially with each passing year more and more guys who are deserving NOT being in (Andre Reed...)


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