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 Post subject: Re: Schilling to Clemens:Give Back Cy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:41 pm 
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Chris_H_2 wrote:
J38ryan wrote:
punkdavid wrote:
J38ryan wrote:
punkdavid wrote:
Curt Schilling hasn't been hit by nearly enough trucks, I think.


Agreed.

I actually believe Clemens.

Now, let's not go crazy. Clemens is a roider. But at least he knows how to STFU when appropriate.



We shall see. Toronto's Trainer during the Clemens years came out yesterday and said that He never saw Clemens take anything and doesnn't believe Clemens every took anything.

Even Jose Canseco, who seems hell bent on burying anyone he even suspected of taking Steroids, said Clemens never took them. And other than him naming Pudge and A-Rod earlier, Conseco has been Dead-On about almost everyone else.


You don't need a physiologist expert to convince you that you don't gain velocity on your fastball once you hit 40, just like you don't need one to convince you that your head shouldn't grow to the size of a large pumpkin (see, Barry Bonds) after you turn 35 without steriods or HGH.



Clemens hasn't had his old 97-98 on a fastball for years. He tops out at about 93 nowadays.

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 Post subject: Re: Schilling to Clemens:Give Back Cy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:42 pm 
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i didn't even see him hit 93 often during his last stint.

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 Post subject: Re: Schilling to Clemens:Give Back Cy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:44 pm 
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corduroy_blazer wrote:
i didn't even see him hit 93 often during his last stint.


Yeah, I think you might be right.....maybe 88-90 then.

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 Post subject: Re: Schilling to Clemens:Give Back Cy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 4:46 pm 
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corduroy_blazer wrote:
i didn't even see him hit 93 often during his last stint.


wow... even on the fox guns?

I swear they add a few MPH on


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 Post subject: Re: Schilling to Clemens:Give Back Cy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:07 pm 
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J38ryan wrote:
corduroy_blazer wrote:
i didn't even see him hit 93 often during his last stint.


Yeah, I think you might be right.....maybe 88-90 then.


Of course he didn't. I'm talking specifically about 1998-2002 when he is accused to have used.

From Jon Heyman:

Quote:
Roger Clemens' denials are getting louder and somehow less convincing as he attempts to extricate himself from the steroid allegations made against him in the bombshell, worth-every-penny Mitchell Report that contains 8 1/2 pages of compelling, detailed evidence against the would-be Hall of Famer.

Clemens issued his second denial in five days on Tuesday, saying through his agent: "I did not take steroids, human growth hormone or any other banned substances at any time in my baseball career or, in fact, my entire life.''

How many people out there believe Clemens's empty words?

It's hard for me to believe that, by now, there is anyone out there who thinks Clemens is completely clean -- that is, beyond those who are either in his family or on his payroll, such as his lawyer, agents and personal massage therapist, a couple of whom have joined in the Clemens cacophony (emphasis on the phony).

Still, Clemens' denials aren't exactly shocking for two reasons: 1) He is a superstar who's used to folks fawning at his feet, and 2) As an all-time great, he has a lot more to lose than the Adam Piatts and Stephen Randolphs of the world.

That said, the evidence against Clemens is strong. His trainer, Brian McNamee provided the goods and was compelled to testify truthfully through a threat of prosecution and would otherwise have no other interest in outing his best and best-paying client. According to the document, Clemens was identified as a serial cheater, an aficionado of Anadrol-50, Sustanon 250, Winstrol, Deca-Durabolin and HGH beginning in 1998 and extending at various intervals through at least 2001. The Clemens section was not short of details.

The story in the report is convincing. But if you believe the story Clemens is sticking to, you have to believe 1) that McNamee is lying to the feds, 2) that the confession of longtime training partner, best buddy and fellow McNamee client Andy Pettitte -- that Pettitte took HGH (corroborating McNamee's claims) --has nothing to do with Clemens, 3) that since the season he turned 35 he went 164-73 due to outsized talent and superior training methods alone, and 4) that the bat he whipped at Mike Piazza in the 2000 World Series had nothing to do with 'roid rage. The last two aren't really evidence but the first two would appear to be case killers for Clemens.

Nor is Clemens in very good company with his stringent denials. Several players named in Mitchell Report already have confessed to some or more of the sins outlined, but Clemens remains one of a select few to continue to publicly deny everything. Lenny Dykstra -- long regarded as one of the game's most obvious juicers -- is another rare one in full denial mode.

In the end, the pitcher who famously postponed the "twilight of his career" (the phrase made famous by former Red Sox GM Dan Duquette in 1996) for more than a decade must think that we are all living in the twilight zone.


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 Post subject: Re: Schilling to Clemens:Give Back Cy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:27 pm 
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Chris_H_2 wrote:
J38ryan wrote:
corduroy_blazer wrote:
i didn't even see him hit 93 often during his last stint.


Yeah, I think you might be right.....maybe 88-90 then.


Of course he didn't. I'm talking specifically about 1998-2002 when he is accused to have used.

I don't know if his performance is such a great indicator. He was basically a league average pitcher in two of those years (1999, 2002). I don't doubt he was using something...but it's not like he was dominating every year during that period.

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 Post subject: Re: Schilling to Clemens:Give Back Cy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:40 pm 
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Ricardo Tubbs wrote:
Chris_H_2 wrote:
J38ryan wrote:
corduroy_blazer wrote:
i didn't even see him hit 93 often during his last stint.


Yeah, I think you might be right.....maybe 88-90 then.


Of course he didn't. I'm talking specifically about 1998-2002 when he is accused to have used.

I don't know if his performance is such a great indicator. He was basically a league average pitcher in two of those years (1999, 2002). I don't doubt he was using something...but it's not like he was dominating every year during that period.


I disagree about performance. He was a freak of nature and, instead of posting declining numbers when every other great pitcher his age did (even Maddux started to fall off at 38), Clemens continued to dominate. Just look at his numbers from 2004 alone while with Houston when he won the Cy Young. He was 42 years old, pitched 214 innings, had an ERA of below 3 in that ridiculous hitters' ballpark, went 18-4 and, the only reason that he didn't win 25 games is because he had a stretch of 5-6 games where his offense produced 1 or fewer runs for him. Again, he was 42. His ERA the next year was a full run less. I don't care how good your work-out regime is, those numbers are freakish.


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 Post subject: Re: Schilling to Clemens:Give Back Cy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 5:52 pm 
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Chris_H_2 wrote:
Ricardo Tubbs wrote:
Chris_H_2 wrote:
J38ryan wrote:
corduroy_blazer wrote:
i didn't even see him hit 93 often during his last stint.


Yeah, I think you might be right.....maybe 88-90 then.


Of course he didn't. I'm talking specifically about 1998-2002 when he is accused to have used.

I don't know if his performance is such a great indicator. He was basically a league average pitcher in two of those years (1999, 2002). I don't doubt he was using something...but it's not like he was dominating every year during that period.


I disagree about performance. He was a freak of nature and, instead of posting declining numbers when every other great pitcher his age did (even Maddux started to fall off at 38), Clemens continued to dominate. Just look at his numbers from 2004 alone while with Houston when he won the Cy Young. He was 42 years old, pitched 214 innings, had an ERA of below 3 in that ridiculous hitters' ballpark, went 18-4 and, the only reason that he didn't win 25 games is because he had a stretch of 5-6 games where his offense produced 1 or fewer runs for him. Again, he was 42. His ERA the next year was a full run less. I don't care how good your work-out regime is, those numbers are freakish.

the NL sucks? :lol:

seriously, it's not unheard of for power pitchers to dominate late in their career. Nolan Ryan struck out 300+ guys when he was 42. Unit struck out 290 in a ridiculous 245 innings at age 40. From ages 33-38 he struck out 291, 329, 364, 347, 372 (!), and 334.

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 Post subject: Re: Schilling to Clemens:Give Back Cy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 6:48 pm 
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I'm a Yankee's fan and will say that I believe Clemens is guilty. I'm more suprised at Andy Pettite's confession though.

There's only two real options for baseball right now. Strip all players found using performance enhancing drugs of all their stats for the duration of usage, or leave it alone and start testing now. A positive test equals suspension, or whatever punishment deemed acceptable by MLB.

Such a shame that all these records and great players are going to have something negative associated with them.

And yeah, Curt Schilling needs to shut the fuck up. Seems he has an opinion on everyone and everything. Maybe he should quit baseball and become a commentator up in Beantown. Go work for NESN or ESPN, Curt.

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 Post subject: Re: Schilling to Clemens:Give Back Cy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:15 pm 
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Sandler wrote:
I'm a Yankee's fan and will say that I believe Clemens is guilty. I'm more suprised at Andy Pettite's confession though.

There's only two real options for baseball right now. Strip all players found using performance enhancing drugs of all their stats for the duration of usage, or leave it alone and start testing now. A positive test equals suspension, or whatever punishment deemed acceptable by MLB.

Such a shame that all these records and great players are going to have something negative associated with them.

And yeah, Curt Schilling needs to shut the fuck up. Seems he has an opinion on everyone and everything. Maybe he should quit baseball and become a commentator up in Beantown. Go work for NESN or ESPN, Curt.


oh christ... i hope he doesn't retire here and work for NESN

go back to Zona and work douchebacks games


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 Post subject: Re: Schilling to Clemens:Give Back Cy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 7:54 pm 
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bostonlou wrote:
Sandler wrote:
I'm a Yankee's fan and will say that I believe Clemens is guilty. I'm more suprised at Andy Pettite's confession though.

There's only two real options for baseball right now. Strip all players found using performance enhancing drugs of all their stats for the duration of usage, or leave it alone and start testing now. A positive test equals suspension, or whatever punishment deemed acceptable by MLB.

Such a shame that all these records and great players are going to have something negative associated with them.

And yeah, Curt Schilling needs to shut the fuck up. Seems he has an opinion on everyone and everything. Maybe he should quit baseball and become a commentator up in Beantown. Go work for NESN or ESPN, Curt.


oh christ... i hope he doesn't retire here and work for NESN

go back to Zona and work douchebacks games



Haha, yeah. He's been a great pitcher everywhere, but he was a huge factor in the Sox winning their first World Series in 86 years. He is a Red Sox, and will prolly make a career in Boston (assuming he's as smart as he portrays himself to be).

You're stuck with him.

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 Post subject: Re: Schilling to Clemens:Give Back Cy
PostPosted: Fri Dec 21, 2007 10:17 pm 
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cutuphalfdead wrote:
i got bugs wrote:
cutuphalfdead wrote:
i got bugs wrote:
warehouse wrote:
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fuck schilling, like he never touched the juice

plus he used performance enhancing drugs to beat the yanks in 04, so should he have to give that ring back

:lol: if he used drugs to beat the yanks im pretty sure we can call it even


he did,i bet he shot up enough milligrams of painkillers that game to fuck up a chinese army

but at least pain killers have the counter effect of fucking you up


still, i know wayyy more people whos lives were fucked up from pain killers than steroids

and the league announced he was shootin them up during the game and it was no big deal..that was fuckin bullshit

Did a doctor prescribe them? With the situation with his ankle I would bet any doctor would have given that guy painkillers.


im sure he prescribed them, my question is exactly how much did he shoot up that night....i would bank a ton on far more than any doctor would prescribe in a healthy regular dose

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 Post subject: Re: Schilling to Clemens:Give Back Cy
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:08 am 
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Take it for what it is worth, but Jeter is usually pretty careful about everything he says:

Jeter, Joba back Clemens; lawyer bashes media reports
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Updated: December 21, 2007, 1:16 PM ET
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Two of Roger Clemens' teammates on the New York Yankees defended the embattled pitcher on Thursday, the same day his lawyer unleashed another attack on media reports linking the seven-time Cy Young Award winner with the use of performance-enhancing drugs.



Yankees captain Derek Jeter, speaking with reporters on Thursday before a holiday event for his charitable foundation, said the public should not rush to judgment on Clemens, who was named in the Mitchell report by his former strength trainer as having taken steroids and human growth hormone starting in the late 1990s.



"Seems like now people are rushing to judgment and I think you have to let it play out a little bit before you make your decision on whether he's guilty or not," Jeter said.



Asked if he stands by Clemens, Jeter said "Yeah. Rocket's always been a great teammate. I've said that time in and time out, that he's a great teammate. I didn't like him too much when I played against him because he has always been very competitive. But he's always been a great teammate."



Yankees reliever Joba Chamberlain, who had the locker next to Clemens last season in the Yankees clubhouse, also defended Clemens on Thursday.



"It's a question that's going to be brought up for a long time, but the man has been successful for so long, he's obviously doing something right," Chamberlain said during a visit to children undergoing treatment at Sloan-Kettering Cancer Center in New York. "His work ethic has been shown, he does what he does, and he does it for a reason. He's been successful and that's why."



Meanwhile, Clemens' attorney, Rusty Hardin, blasted the media Thursday when it was revealed that a 2006 Los Angeles Times report linking Clemens to an affidavit listing several players alleged to have used performance-enhancing drugs was inaccurate. Clemens' name did not appear in the document, as was previously reported.


"When this grossly inaccurate story broke in October 2006, Roger said it was untrue and the Los Angeles Times chose not to believe him. As the record now clearly proves, Roger was telling the truth then, just as he continues to tell the truth today," Hardin said.


"Roger Clemens did not take steroids, and anybody who says he did had better start looking for a hell of a good lawyer."



Chamberlain said Clemens was a big influence on him in the clubhouse -- and that he'll be missed if he does not return next season.



"The work ethic the guys see makes them push themselves, but he's also a big kid when it comes down to it," Chamberlain said. "He's a funny guy, he keeps it light and knows how to switch gears between being serious and knowing when to go to work."



Former Yankees reliever Goose Gossage, though, was highly critical of Clemens, saying the Cy Young awards Clemens won in 1997, '98 and 2001 should be taken away.

"If Roger cheated, what do the numbers mean? They mean nothing," Gossage told the Bergen Record on Thursday. "Roger has always been a production, everything he's done has been a production. He's always wanted the attention. He's probably getting a lot more attention now than he ever wanted.

"With Clemens, you just shake your head and wonder how it all happened, how it came to this. I mean, why didn't the Red Sox re-sign him [after the 1996 season]? All of a sudden his numbers started getting crazy when he was supposed to be getting older.

"There's no way [those post-1996 Cy Young awards] can stand."

Jeter also said he has recently spoken with Andy Pettitte, who has acknowledged using HGH to recover from elbow injuries. Pettitte is a close friend of Clemens and used the same strength trainer, Brian McNamee.



"Me and Andy have had a great relationship throughout the years, whether he's here in New York or he's in Houston," Jeter said. "I've talked to Andy, Andy knows how I feel about him, he knows how we feel about him as an organization. It took a lot of courage for him to come out and be honest about it and hopefully he can move on."



After the affidavit was unsealed Thursday and the actual names were revealed, the Times apologized.

"We regret our report was inaccurate and will run a correction," Times spokesman Stephan Pechdimaldji said Thursday.



The correction, published Friday, said that the Times incorrectly reported that "an investigator alleged that pitcher Jason Grimsley named former teammates Roger Clemens, Andy Pettitte, Brian Roberts and Jay Gibbons as players linked to performance-enhancing drugs. In the affidavit, which was unsealed Thursday, Grimsley did not name those players."



The Times also said the report inaccurately reported that Grimsley had alleged Tejada had used steroids. "The only mention of Tejada in the affidavit was as part of a conversation with teammates about baseball's ban of amphetamines," the correction said.

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 Post subject: Re: Schilling to Clemens:Give Back Cy
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 2:19 am 
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Quote:
Take it for what it is worth, but Jeter is usually pretty careful about everything he says:


Of course he's gonna back his teamate. Jeter is full of shit too. Personally i think Jeter is clean but i wouldn't be that surprised if shit came out that he used steroids or HGH. But if he is clean he's just a moron for backing a blatant steroid user. It takes away from what he accomplished as a "clean" player. That's baseballs biggest problem, most of the players live by the "don't rat" rule even if it takes money out of their hands unjustly. It's almost as bad as the "gangsta-douches" that "don't rat" even though their best buddy just got murdered.

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 Post subject: Re: Schilling to Clemens:Give Back Cy
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 3:59 am 
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clubber, how can you call anyone a blatant steroid user and be such a fan of football?

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 Post subject: Re: Schilling to Clemens:Give Back Cy
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 4:08 am 
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Clubber wrote:
Quote:
Take it for what it is worth, but Jeter is usually pretty careful about everything he says:


Of course he's gonna back his teamate. Jeter is full of shit too. Personally i think Jeter is clean but i wouldn't be that surprised if shit came out that he used steroids or HGH. But if he is clean he's just a moron for backing a blatant steroid user. It takes away from what he accomplished as a "clean" player. That's baseballs biggest problem, most of the players live by the "don't rat" rule even if it takes money out of their hands unjustly. It's almost as bad as the "gangsta-douches" that "don't rat" even though their best buddy just got murdered.


Mets Fan.
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 Post subject: Re: Schilling to Clemens:Give Back Cy
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:27 pm 
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Peeps wrote:
clubber, how can you call anyone a blatant steroid user and be such a fan of football?


I'm not gonna sit here and deny that most football players aren't on steroids, cause they are. But to me baseball loses a lot of its luster without it's history because it's not as good as a sport to watch as football. The negatives in baseball outweigh the positives at this point(the insane contracts, no salary cap, the season too long, the games too long, being boring in general), throw in the steroids shit and it's just a mess as far as i'm concerned. If i was a die-hard baseball fan i'd feel lost right now.

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 Post subject: Re: Schilling to Clemens:Give Back Cy
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 12:28 pm 
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J38ryan wrote:
Clubber wrote:
Quote:
Take it for what it is worth, but Jeter is usually pretty careful about everything he says:


Of course he's gonna back his teamate. Jeter is full of shit too. Personally i think Jeter is clean but i wouldn't be that surprised if shit came out that he used steroids or HGH. But if he is clean he's just a moron for backing a blatant steroid user. It takes away from what he accomplished as a "clean" player. That's baseballs biggest problem, most of the players live by the "don't rat" rule even if it takes money out of their hands unjustly. It's almost as bad as the "gangsta-douches" that "don't rat" even though their best buddy just got murdered.


Mets Fan.
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 Post subject: Re: Schilling to Clemens:Give Back Cy
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 5:44 pm 
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Clubber wrote:
Peeps wrote:
clubber, how can you call anyone a blatant steroid user and be such a fan of football?


I'm not gonna sit here and deny that most football players aren't on steroids, cause they are. But to me baseball loses a lot of its luster without it's history because it's not as good as a sport to watch as football. The negatives in baseball outweigh the positives at this point(the insane contracts, no salary cap, the season too long, the games too long, being boring in general), throw in the steroids shit and it's just a mess as far as i'm concerned. If i was a die-hard baseball fan i'd feel lost right now.


I'd feel lost too. Thank god they lost me back when the strike wiped out the WS... :haha:


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 Post subject: Re: Schilling to Clemens:Give Back Cy
PostPosted: Sat Dec 22, 2007 6:30 pm 
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geez clubber, again!? we all know you hate baseball... let it go dude...

:D

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