Not to mention it's not exactly like the rest of the NL West is full of hitter friendly parks.

Too much ignoring of Omar Vizquel in this thread.

He is borderline. I think a very strong case can be made for him. Thome as well. His OBP and OPS are outstanding (41st and 17th all time). The guy had some monster seasons in both leagues. I think I would vote for him.

I think Vizquel will suffer from playing in an era with good offensive shortstops like Jeter, Rodriguez and Tejada while he was primarily known for his defense.

But if Ozzie Smith can get in I don't see why Omar can't.

Thome is weird for me. I know he has the numbers but when I think of the 90s Indians teams he is never the first one to come to mind as the best player on any of those teams, yet I look at his career and see that it's better than any of them with the possible exception of Manny. I think he'll get in.

yes, but his career batting average of .328 is definitely skewed by his splits. .294 ain't that grand when you consider his other home/away splits are telling:

OBP: .462 home/.394 away
SLG: .652/.494
OPS: 1.114/.888

modern era closers shouldnt be anywhere near the HOF

Trevor Hoffman never saved a big game in his life and BILLY WAGNER? are you joking?

if billy wagner ever gets into the HOF ill personally burn the building down

dude ...

michael, the writers dont vote on SEXY

abreu? really?

I love different ballparks that each team has and the little quirks and nuances they provide. Each team can create a team based on that ballpark and it makes it interesting.

That said, should parks be more homogenized so that player comparisons can mean something? Are we too far along now to even consider that? Each era can have an effect on stats, should ballpark dimensions make it more difficult?

I'm not advocating, just tossing it out there.

I think the best part of this thread is the fact that Davo made a cameo appearance.

the parks of yesteryear were built with all those quirks because they HAD to be. they were built in neighborhoods and they were too small and had to be added on to....

tell me what the fuck the reason is for the Astros new park to have that hill in center field? its for no other reason than to get a few more baseball tourists thru the gate.

And most of the parks built now are way, way too small. Baltimore, Philly, whatever Houstons is called....bandboxes so we can all ooh and aahh at 375 foot homers

Even though I know people today constantly debate back and forth over how overrated closers truly are in the game, but you know there's just no way in friggin hell the guy with the most saves ALL TIME isn't getting into the Hall, so might as well start getting used to it.

With Wagner, well the more I think about it, I'll grant you that especially considering the amount of save opportunities he's blown over his career (a quick look and calculation shows he's converted 86%), that could put him into the iffy category, but I don't know... he's at the very least there. Again, he'll finish within the top 5 of all time.

If Lee Smith isn't in, Billy Wagner and most of these other guys shouldn't be either. I'd say Rivera and possibly Hoffman are exceptions.

Rivera is a first ballot HOF without question

Hoffan will probably get in, I personally have seen enough of his games to think hes nowhere near a HOFer, but i dont vote

as for Wagner....just forget it

Yeah that's kind of what i was referring to. THe artificial pumping of stats like that. How many of Thome's (to pick on one) were a benefit of the new parks?

And I hate that damn mound in Houston. That's an injury waiting to happen. You're telling me you can't field a decent enough of a team to pull people in so you have to build a freaking hill with a flagpole to get people in???

See I just don't understand this argument.

RIVERA:
66-47 l 2.30 ERA l 469 SV l 914 K l 52 HR Allowed l 1.029 WHIP

WAGNER:
39-37 l 2.38 ERA l 385 SV l 1064 K l 76 HR Allowed l 1.005 WHIP

And before the end of his career I'll say that Wagner has a good chance of reaching at least 450 saves, Rivera yea can do 500, but I don't see him pitching for anymore than a couple more years. Looking at all that, how exactly is Rivera undoubtedly a first ballot guy while Wagner has not shot whatsoever? That just doesn't make sense. Obviously Rivera is the greatest post-season closer of all time (arguably best overall) but the Hall's never faulted a guy for doing great in the regular season but simply never having much chance at all of even playing in the post-season, that's way too dependent on the rest of your team.

Team played for: New York Yankees.

wagner will close games 1-2-3 in may against the reds....ask any mets fan how he does under REAL pressure....

mo has the numbers AND the ungodly postseason performances

Well taking the quote strictly like that makes it seem outta context I'm not doubting that Mo is a first ballot guy, I just don't think the Koufax's argument holds water that Wagner shouldn't even be at all considered for the Hall.

Oh I also neglected to mention in the last post that I hadn't realized Lee Smith is not yet in the Hall Of Fame, that's kinda ridiculous. Dude belongs in there.