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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong is a doper
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 7:55 pm 
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So if Lance was doping, but everyone behind him was doping as well and he still won...doesn't that mean something?

God, what a clusterfuck. :haha:

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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong is a doper
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:02 pm 
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Angus wrote:
Electromatic wrote:
Professional Cycling is over as far as guys being clean. Open it up. I want to see what can happen when everyone is doing literally everything they can to push the limits of human performance.


Too much money involved. Even at amateur level. Believe me, I know guys who put their health to risk for amateur races where they can earn $100 if they win. You don't have to think about what they'd do to win the tour.

Also, I find it to be very very hypocritical. Merckx was caught three times and never stripped of anything and still regarded as the greatest ever. Armstrong was never caught and is stripped of everything and regarded as the biggest cheat ever. I don't really get it. And that's coming from a Belgian where Merckx is God and cycling is incredibly popular.



I guess it just depends on the governing body and who you tend to believe and or how much one cares about doping. I feel like it's like this in most of the individual Olympic type sports at this point.

The line between legal supplement and illegal PED is very thin.

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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong is a doper
PostPosted: Tue Aug 28, 2012 8:09 pm 
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Peeps wrote:
im pretty sure thedocks uses PED's for his posting prestigiousness

personality-enhancing drugs?

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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong is a doper
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 4:07 am 
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Alex wrote:
Peeps wrote:
im pretty sure thedocks uses PED's for his posting prestigiousness

personality-enhancing drugs?

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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong is a doper
PostPosted: Wed Aug 29, 2012 10:20 am 
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Orpheus wrote:
So if Lance was doping, but everyone behind him was doping as well and he still won...doesn't that mean something?

God, what a clusterfuck. :haha:


Well, that's the point entirely. If Armstrong effectively loses his titles, Ullrich (who now has one Tour behind his name) wins another 3 times the Tour de France. Then what do they do with Riis, the most EPO-doped cyclist ever and his Tour in 96? Give it to 2nd placed Ullrich as well. This would put Ullrich on 5, equal to Merckx, Anquetil & Hinault. Wait wait... Ullrich was 2nd behind Pantani as well. Strip Pantani as well and Ullrich is on 6? Ullrich ... greatest ever ... :shake: and :haha: It's absurd.

I've checked the general end results of some of those Lance-Tours and the amount of people there who got caught later on is just ridiculous.


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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong is a doper
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 7:08 am 
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Quote:
Statement From USADA CEO Travis T. Tygart Regarding The U.S. Postal Service Pro Cycling Team Doping Conspiracy

Statement released 10-10-12 at 9:30 AM Mountain Time

October 10, 2012

Today, we are sending the ‘Reasoned Decision’ in the Lance Armstrong case and supporting information to the Union Cycliste International (UCI), the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA), and the World Triathlon Corporation (WTC). The evidence shows beyond any doubt that the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team ran the most sophisticated, professionalized and successful doping program that sport has ever seen.

The evidence of the US Postal Service Pro Cycling Team-run scheme is overwhelming and is in excess of 1000 pages, and includes sworn testimony from 26 people, including 15 riders with knowledge of the US Postal Service Team (USPS Team) and its participants’ doping activities. The evidence also includes direct documentary evidence including financial payments, emails, scientific data and laboratory test results that further prove the use, possession and distribution of performance enhancing drugs by Lance Armstrong and confirm the disappointing truth about the deceptive activities of the USPS Team, a team that received tens of millions of American taxpayer dollars in funding.

Together these different categories of eyewitness, documentary, first-hand, scientific, direct and circumstantial evidence reveal conclusive and undeniable proof that brings to the light of day for the first time this systemic, sustained and highly professionalized team-run doping conspiracy. All of the material will be made available later this afternoon on the USADA website at http://www.usada.org.

The USPS Team doping conspiracy was professionally designed to groom and pressure athletes to use dangerous drugs, to evade detection, to ensure its secrecy and ultimately gain an unfair competitive advantage through superior doping practices. A program organized by individuals who thought they were above the rules and who still play a major and active role in sport today.

The evidence demonstrates that the ‘Code of Silence’ of performance enhancing drug use in the sport of cycling has been shattered, but there is more to do. From day one, we always hoped this investigation would bring to a close this troubling chapter in cycling’s history and we hope the sport will use this tragedy to prevent it from ever happening again.

Of course, no one wants to be chained to the past forever, and I would call on the UCI to act on its own recent suggestion for a meaningful Truth and Reconciliation program. While we appreciate the arguments that weigh in favor of and against such a program, we believe that allowing individuals like the riders mentioned today to come forward and acknowledge the truth about their past doping may be the only way to truly dismantle the remaining system that allowed this “EPO and Blood Doping Era” to flourish. Hopefully, the sport can unshackle itself from the past, and once and for all continue to move forward to a better future.

Our mission is to protect clean athletes by preserving the integrity of competition not only for today’s athletes but also the athletes of tomorrow. We have heard from many athletes who have faced an unfair dilemma — dope, or don’t compete at the highest levels of the sport. Many of them abandoned their dreams and left sport because they refused to endanger their health and participate in doping. That is a tragic choice no athlete should have to make.

It took tremendous courage for the riders on the USPS Team and others to come forward and speak truthfully. It is not easy to admit your mistakes and accept your punishment. But that is what these riders have done for the good of the sport, and for the young riders who hope to one day reach their dreams without using dangerous drugs or methods.

These eleven (11) teammates of Lance Armstrong, in alphabetical order, are Frankie Andreu, Michael Barry, Tom Danielson, Tyler Hamilton, George Hincapie, Floyd Landis, Levi Leipheimer, Stephen Swart, Christian Vande Velde, Jonathan Vaughters and David Zabriskie.

The riders who participated in the USPS Team doping conspiracy and truthfully assisted have been courageous in making the choice to stop perpetuating the sporting fraud, and they have suffered greatly. In addition to the public revelations, the active riders have been suspended and disqualified appropriately in line with the rules. In some part, it would have been easier for them if it all would just go away; however, they love the sport, and they want to help young athletes have hope that they are not put in the position they were -- to face the reality that in order to climb to the heights of their sport they had to sink to the depths of dangerous cheating.

I have personally talked with and heard these athletes’ stories and firmly believe that, collectively, these athletes, if forgiven and embraced, have a chance to leave a legacy far greater for the good of the sport than anything they ever did on a bike.

Lance Armstrong was given the same opportunity to come forward and be part of the solution. He rejected it.

Instead he exercised his legal right not to contest the evidence and knowingly accepted the imposition of a ban from recognized competition for life and disqualification of his competitive results from 1998 forward. The entire factual and legal basis on the outcome in his case and the other six active riders’ cases will be provided in the materials made available online later today. Two other members of the USPS Team, Dr. Michele Ferrari and Dr. Garcia del Moral, also received lifetime bans for perpetrating this doping conspiracy.

Three other members of the USPS Team have chosen to contest the charges and take their cases to arbitration: Johan Bruyneel, the team director; Dr. Pedro Celaya, a team doctor; and Jose “Pepe” Marti, the team trainer. These three individuals will receive a full hearing before independent judges, where they will have the opportunity to present and confront the evidence, cross-examine witnesses and testify under oath in a public proceeding.

From day one in this case, as in every potential case, the USADA Board of Directors and professional staff did the job we are mandated to do for clean athletes and the integrity of sport. We focused solely on finding the truth without being influenced by celebrity or non-celebrity, threats, personal attacks or political pressure because that is what clean athletes deserve and demand.”

CONTACT:
USADA Media Relations
Phone: (719) 785-2000
E-mail: media@usada.org


http://cyclinginvestigation.usada.org/

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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong is a doper
PostPosted: Thu Oct 11, 2012 1:43 pm 
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This is the equivialent of the Yankees, Redsox, Blue Jays and Astros turning state on Roger Clemens.

Basically Cycling on the professional level has been exposed as a complete farce.

It's a rich mans game anyway.

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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong is a doper
PostPosted: Fri Oct 12, 2012 10:24 pm 
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Lance should just come clean and admit to cheating and say hes sorry. It would be what is best for his charity, which undeniably does great work. It would be a shame if it was impacted. I mean, how many people want to be wearing yellow 'dopestrong' bracelets given this shit storm?


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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong is a doper
PostPosted: Sat Oct 13, 2012 10:08 pm 
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verb_to_trust wrote:
Lance should just come clean and admit to cheating and say hes sorry. It would be what is best for his charity, which undeniably does great work. It would be a shame if it was impacted. I mean, how many people want to be wearing yellow 'dopestrong' bracelets given this shit storm?


I said this earlier today and was laughed at: the only thing he could do in my eyes that would somehow be "good" now is to write another book with the entire truth and have every single penny it makes donated to his cancer fund. I'd buy it. I will always appreciate him for his battle against cancer. Something that has hit me very hard on a personal level. That's why I always, admittedly in a very naive way, defended Armstrong. But sportswise, I lost my last single bit of faith in everything cyclism related. And there's many like me in this otherwise cyclism-crazy country that is Belgium. Just look at the team leaders out there nowadays, Vinokourov, Riis, our Johan Bruyneel, ... Even people inside the UCI have covered up Armstrong in 2001 when he was caught in the Tour of Switserland. How much more shameful could it get? Philippe Gilbert, Bradley Wiggins, you may be the good guys, I'm very sorry, but I can't. I almost wish more countries followed Germany's example when they stopped caring/sending camera teams to this cheatfest of a sport.


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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong is a doper
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 9:10 am 
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I read this today, I can see (from his perspective) why he'd be reluctant to come clean at this late stage:

http://www.abc.net.au/unleashed/4312720.html

Quote:
Armstrong's determination lands him in deeper water

Lance Armstrong's demand that his accusers show proof he had been involved in doping could result in a far greater penalty than the forfeiture of his Tour titles, writes Glenn Mitchell.

For Lance Armstrong it was a case of ask and ye shall receive.

In an archetypal Lance display he stared down his accusers and demanded they show proof that he had used illicit means en route to winning his seven Tour de France titles.

His accuser, the United States Anti-Doping Authority (USADA), released a 1,000-page document last week that cast Armstrong as a serial user and supplier of banned substances.

Eleven former teammates were among 26 witnesses who delivered what has been widely deemed to be irrefutable evidence that the Texan's career was a sham.

Armstrong and his phalanx of legal advisers sought several times to have the USADA enquiry quashed and when that failed he stated publicly that he was no longer interested in trying to clear his name by forfeiting his right to put a counter case to that which USADA had constructed against him.

That act alone seemed most peculiar for a man who has so stringently stated his innocence.

He questioned USADA's relevance in trying to prosecute him and declared that the whole process was a 'witch hunt'.

Well, he may not have been proven to be a witch but the findings of the investigation paints him as his sport's supreme warlock when it comes to doping.

To date, Armstrong has made no meaningful response to the litany of accusations raised by USADA.

On the back of the damning evidence many have urged him to come out of his lair and admit to his nefarious actions.

However, in doing so he could end up inflicting upon himself a far greater penalty than the forfeiture of his Tour titles.

A confession now by Armstrong in the form of a mea culpa would be tantamount to admitting to perjury with a resultant jail sentence the likely outcome.

In late-November 2005, in an affidavit signed under oath and subject to the penalties of perjury, Armstrong stated point blank that he had never engaged in doping.

While many have questioned the accusative testimony against Armstrong by the likes of former teammates Floyd Landis and Tyler Hamilton who both were suspended for drug use, it is perhaps Armstrong himself who has done the most to implicate himself with regard to untoward behaviour.

In the 2005 affidavit he was questioned extensively about his relationship with Italian sports doctor, Michele Ferrari, a man who has had an extremely questionable past with regard to doping in sport.

Armstrong stated that Ferrari had never supplied him with any drugs or suggested any doping practices to him as well as saying that he did not have any knowledge of Ferrari providing drugs to other riders.

The USADA findings strongly dispute those claims.

But the more crucial piece of evidence that was tendered in the Armstrong sworn affidavit was the statement that he had severed all ties with Ferrari on October 1, 2004 following the doctor's conviction in an Italian court for sporting fraud arising from a case where he was accused of supplying several athletes with illegal drugs.

Armstrong admitted in the same statement that Ferrari had been a consultant to both himself and his US Postal team from 1999.

As late as April 15, 2010 Armstrong spokesman Mark Fabiani stated that, "Lance has not had a professional relationship with Ferrari since 2004".

USADA however found evidence that Armstrong had worked alongside Ferrari at a training camp in Tenerife in March 2005.

The inquiry also unearthed financial records that showed that Armstrong had made payments to the tune of $US210,000 after October 2004 to Ferrari.

Among those payments was one of $US100,000 tendered to Ferrari on March 29, 2005, shortly after the training camp in the Canary Islands and six months before Armstrong testified under oath that he had had no dealings with Ferrari since October 2004.

The investigation also cited an email from 2009 in which Armstrong asked Ferrari's son if he could make a $US25,000 cash payment the next time they met.

Further emails pointed to the fact that the son was the go-between for the deals and advice provided to Armstrong by his father.

The financial records alone would be enough to see Armstrong charged with perjury.

But a potential perjury case may not be the end of his relationship with the inside of an American courtroom.

In 2004, a company called SCA Promotions withheld a $US5 million performance bonus it had agreed to pay Armstrong should he win his fifth consecutive Tour de France that year.

The company said it would not pay the bonus on the basis of the myriad reports that suggested that the Texan had used performance enhancing drugs to win the event and had also been working with the notorious Dr Ferrari.

It was the resultant court action over SCA's refusal to pay that generated the above mentioned affidavit in which Armstrong swore under oath that he had never used any form of doping agent.

In the end, a settlement saw SCA pay Armstrong $US7.5 million which included interest and court costs.

Given the evidence to have emerged of late, SCA has expressed an interest in going back to court.

If it does, Armstrong will have some tough questions to answer.

And then of course there is the prospect of some of his long-term sponsors also wanting to recover money that was largely paid to him under false pretences.

This USADA inquiry has once again been a massive blow to the sport of cycling.

Since the release of USADA's detailed findings the aftershocks have reached as far as Australia, with Armstrong's former US Postal teammate, Matt White admitting to doping during his time on the team.

After being named in Landis' testimony as having used drugs, White issued a statement in which he confirmed the allegation.

At the same time he stepped down as an Olympic selector and relinquished his role as the team director of the first Australian professional top-tier team, Orica GreenEdge.

His fate, including the possibility of returning to both roles, will be determined in the coming weeks

Cycling will have to brace itself in the months ahead as there is a great likelihood that the fallout won't be going away in a hurry.

Unlike the man at the centre of the storm who may well find himself going away - to a US federal penitentiary.


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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong is a doper
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 1:48 pm 
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Angus wrote:
verb_to_trust wrote:
Lance should just come clean and admit to cheating and say hes sorry. It would be what is best for his charity, which undeniably does great work. It would be a shame if it was impacted. I mean, how many people want to be wearing yellow 'dopestrong' bracelets given this shit storm?


I said this earlier today and was laughed at: the only thing he could do in my eyes that would somehow be "good" now is to write another book with the entire truth and have every single penny it makes donated to his cancer fund. I'd buy it. I will always appreciate him for his battle against cancer. Something that has hit me very hard on a personal level. That's why I always, admittedly in a very naive way, defended Armstrong. But sportswise, I lost my last single bit of faith in everything cyclism related. And there's many like me in this otherwise cyclism-crazy country that is Belgium. Just look at the team leaders out there nowadays, Vinokourov, Riis, our Johan Bruyneel, ... Even people inside the UCI have covered up Armstrong in 2001 when he was caught in the Tour of Switserland. How much more shameful could it get? Philippe Gilbert, Bradley Wiggins, you may be the good guys, I'm very sorry, but I can't. I almost wish more countries followed Germany's example when they stopped caring/sending camera teams to this cheatfest of a sport.



Well Said Angus.

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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong is a doper
PostPosted: Mon Oct 15, 2012 3:17 pm 
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Orpheus wrote:
So if Lance was doping, but everyone behind him was doping as well and he still won...doesn't that mean something?

God, what a clusterfuck. :haha:



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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong is a doper
PostPosted: Wed Oct 17, 2012 1:16 pm 
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Lance stepped down from Livestrong and Nike has terminated his contract. I suspect a very awkward press conference is coming soon for Lance.

I wonder if he could be charged with fraud. I mean the whole Livestrong foundation was built around his success in cycling. He basically duped millions of dollars out of people, albeit it was for charity, but it was still fraudulent.


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 Post subject: Re: Lance Armstrong is a doper
PostPosted: Sun Nov 25, 2012 11:42 pm 
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Angus wrote:
Orpheus wrote:
So if Lance was doping, but everyone behind him was doping as well and he still won...doesn't that mean something?

God, what a clusterfuck. :haha:


Well, that's the point entirely. If Armstrong effectively loses his titles, Ullrich (who now has one Tour behind his name) wins another 3 times the Tour de France. Then what do they do with Riis, the most EPO-doped cyclist ever and his Tour in 96? Give it to 2nd placed Ullrich as well. This would put Ullrich on 5, equal to Merckx, Anquetil & Hinault. Wait wait... Ullrich was 2nd behind Pantani as well. Strip Pantani as well and Ullrich is on 6? Ullrich ... greatest ever ... :shake: and :haha: It's absurd.

I've checked the general end results of some of those Lance-Tours and the amount of people there who got caught later on is just ridiculous.


Ullrich certainly wasn't clean, either.

The entire Peloton was (is?) doping.

As has been mentioned, Lance has managed to paint himself into quite a corner, the best he can hope for now is that the story slowly goes away.

As has also been mentioned, given the fact that everybody doped, it still makes Lance the best, fwiw.

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