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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 12:20 am 
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mick7184 wrote:
PhilPritchard wrote:
cutuphalfdead wrote:
mick7184 wrote:
If the Sox can somehow swing Ellsbury for a 1/2 starter without gutting their farm system, and then play Victorino in CF and sign Ross, all of a sudden the Gomes signing and Victorino contract look alot better.

For sure. I just don't know how good they'll do for Ellsbury right now.


It's definitely a complicated situation for them now. Victorino's value is significantly diminished if he's in right field, but they would be selling low on Ellsbury to trade him after a rough season where he was injured so much. But yeah, even big rebounds from Lester and Buchholz leaves them with a pretty rough looking rotation. What's the latest plan for Bard?


The plan for Bard is to expect nothing and be pleasantly surprised if he's a serviceable major league reliever. Personally I think Bard is done, at least until he leaves Boston. The whole making Bard a starter thing is the biggest gaffe of Cherington's so far abysmal run as GM.


Yeah, the Bard to starter role was terrible. That said, I would be perfectly willing to give the Sox 2-3 years to rebuild and take a longer view of Ben before I judge

I'd trade Ells for a bucket of balls. He's gone anyway, and it doesn't appear the market for a one-year rental is all that strong.

Do you think Lester can turn the corner and find new life now that Farrell is back?

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 1:51 am 
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As far as Lester goes, his market value is at an all-time low and I think it would be foolish to not see if Farrell can turn him around before you started shopping him seriously.


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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:16 pm 
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corduroy_blazer wrote:
PhilPritchard wrote:
mick7184 wrote:
Yeah I'm not thrilled with the Victorino signing. I dont hate it like I hated giving 10 million to Jonny Gomes, but to me Victorino is like a slightly better version of Coco Crisp. I am fully on board with the Napoli signing, but I do find it a bit odd that they have just dropped 80 million dollars on two players who couldnt hit 260 last year.


They both provide a lot more than just batting average... they both get on base at a really good rate, Napoli hits for a lot of power and Victorino adds a lot of speed. These moves will obviously make them a much better team.

That being said, I agree that it's a bit much for Victorino coming off a pretty average season... and don't the Sox really need pitching right now?

I'm thrilled that the Jays pounced on Cabrera before some of these other outfielders started signing. Even with the questions about steroids, I would take Cabrera at 2/16 over any other outfielder contract we've seen so far.

I wouldn't say Victorino gets on base at a "really good rate."


Well last year he was at .321, so right around league average, but he's been over .350 in three of the last five seasons... somewhere around .350 would be a "really good rate." I guess considering his struggles last year I should have said he's capable of getting on base at a really good rate.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:19 pm 
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PhilPritchard wrote:
corduroy_blazer wrote:
PhilPritchard wrote:
mick7184 wrote:
Yeah I'm not thrilled with the Victorino signing. I dont hate it like I hated giving 10 million to Jonny Gomes, but to me Victorino is like a slightly better version of Coco Crisp. I am fully on board with the Napoli signing, but I do find it a bit odd that they have just dropped 80 million dollars on two players who couldnt hit 260 last year.


They both provide a lot more than just batting average... they both get on base at a really good rate, Napoli hits for a lot of power and Victorino adds a lot of speed. These moves will obviously make them a much better team.

That being said, I agree that it's a bit much for Victorino coming off a pretty average season... and don't the Sox really need pitching right now?

I'm thrilled that the Jays pounced on Cabrera before some of these other outfielders started signing. Even with the questions about steroids, I would take Cabrera at 2/16 over any other outfielder contract we've seen so far.

I wouldn't say Victorino gets on base at a "really good rate."


Well last year he was at .321, so right around league average, but he's been over .350 in three of the last five seasons... somewhere around .350 would be a "really good rate." I guess considering his struggles last year I should have said he's capable of getting on base at a really good rate.

When I think of getting on base at a "really good rate" I'm thinking close to .400.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 5:30 pm 
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cutuphalfdead wrote:
PhilPritchard wrote:
corduroy_blazer wrote:
PhilPritchard wrote:
mick7184 wrote:
Yeah I'm not thrilled with the Victorino signing. I dont hate it like I hated giving 10 million to Jonny Gomes, but to me Victorino is like a slightly better version of Coco Crisp. I am fully on board with the Napoli signing, but I do find it a bit odd that they have just dropped 80 million dollars on two players who couldnt hit 260 last year.


They both provide a lot more than just batting average... they both get on base at a really good rate, Napoli hits for a lot of power and Victorino adds a lot of speed. These moves will obviously make them a much better team.

That being said, I agree that it's a bit much for Victorino coming off a pretty average season... and don't the Sox really need pitching right now?

I'm thrilled that the Jays pounced on Cabrera before some of these other outfielders started signing. Even with the questions about steroids, I would take Cabrera at 2/16 over any other outfielder contract we've seen so far.

I wouldn't say Victorino gets on base at a "really good rate."


Well last year he was at .321, so right around league average, but he's been over .350 in three of the last five seasons... somewhere around .350 would be a "really good rate." I guess considering his struggles last year I should have said he's capable of getting on base at a really good rate.

When I think of getting on base at a "really good rate" I'm thinking close to .400.


So moving the "close to .400" cut-off to .380, that would leave the top 12 qualified players from 2012. That seems a little beyond the "really good" category. 43 players had an OBP over .350. I'm comfortable with that being considered "really good."

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:05 pm 
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PhilPritchard wrote:
cutuphalfdead wrote:
PhilPritchard wrote:
corduroy_blazer wrote:
PhilPritchard wrote:
mick7184 wrote:
Yeah I'm not thrilled with the Victorino signing. I dont hate it like I hated giving 10 million to Jonny Gomes, but to me Victorino is like a slightly better version of Coco Crisp. I am fully on board with the Napoli signing, but I do find it a bit odd that they have just dropped 80 million dollars on two players who couldnt hit 260 last year.


They both provide a lot more than just batting average... they both get on base at a really good rate, Napoli hits for a lot of power and Victorino adds a lot of speed. These moves will obviously make them a much better team.

That being said, I agree that it's a bit much for Victorino coming off a pretty average season... and don't the Sox really need pitching right now?

I'm thrilled that the Jays pounced on Cabrera before some of these other outfielders started signing. Even with the questions about steroids, I would take Cabrera at 2/16 over any other outfielder contract we've seen so far.

I wouldn't say Victorino gets on base at a "really good rate."


Well last year he was at .321, so right around league average, but he's been over .350 in three of the last five seasons... somewhere around .350 would be a "really good rate." I guess considering his struggles last year I should have said he's capable of getting on base at a really good rate.

When I think of getting on base at a "really good rate" I'm thinking close to .400.


So moving the "close to .400" cut-off to .380, that would leave the top 12 qualified players from 2012. That seems a little beyond the "really good" category. 43 players had an OBP over .350. I'm comfortable with that being considered "really good."


the games definitely changed... .375 seems to be acceptable, for leadoff hitters, who should be over .400


and Coach, im totally with ya on the writers who covered up the steroid stories being just as at fault / punished... they shouldnt get to vote for the Hall of Fame

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 6:40 pm 
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MadTIGERmaN wrote:
the games definitely changed... .375 seems to be acceptable, for leadoff hitters, who should be over .400


Maybe I'm misreading this, but again, a .375 OBP would be a cutoff for the top three OBP by leadoff hitters in the game (Trout, Fowler and Jackson), which I think makes .375 a whole lot more than "acceptable." Only four players in the majors this year had a .400 OBP.

I agree that a good OBP in 2012 wouldn't have looked so impressive in 2002, but I kind of feel like we're all shooting too high for what we consider a decent OBP.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 06, 2012 7:39 pm 
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PhilPritchard wrote:
MadTIGERmaN wrote:
the games definitely changed... .375 seems to be acceptable, for leadoff hitters, who should be over .400


Maybe I'm misreading this, but again, a .375 OBP would be a cutoff for the top three OBP by leadoff hitters in the game (Trout, Fowler and Jackson), which I think makes .375 a whole lot more than "acceptable." Only four players in the majors this year had a .400 OBP.

I agree that a good OBP in 2012 wouldn't have looked so impressive in 2002, but I kind of feel like we're all shooting too high for what we consider a decent OBP.

this is probably true

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Sat Dec 08, 2012 6:35 pm 
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cutuphalfdead wrote:
PhilPritchard wrote:
MadTIGERmaN wrote:
the games definitely changed... .375 seems to be acceptable, for leadoff hitters, who should be over .400


Maybe I'm misreading this, but again, a .375 OBP would be a cutoff for the top three OBP by leadoff hitters in the game (Trout, Fowler and Jackson), which I think makes .375 a whole lot more than "acceptable." Only four players in the majors this year had a .400 OBP.

I agree that a good OBP in 2012 wouldn't have looked so impressive in 2002, but I kind of feel like we're all shooting too high for what we consider a decent OBP.

this is probably true


jumped onto baseball reference just to get some idea for this...
Henderson the all time greatest leadoff hitter, was always around the .400 level (.401 for career) so i guess that might be high? but the odd thing? he only lead the league once in OBP? and Paul Molitor, another great leadoff hitter of the 80s was all over the place, but a career .369, Tim Raines? .385... Ichiro .365 (course he never walks so...)

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:05 am 
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Man, the Dodgers are fucking crazy.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:13 pm 
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cutuphalfdead wrote:
Man, the Dodgers are fucking crazy.



I started the off season somewhat hoping the Tigers would resign Anibal Sanchez. He then asked for 6/90, and thought they should let him walk. I am now convinced he is going to get 6/100, and under no circumstances do I want them to sign him. He and his contract are going to end a GM's career


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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 1:33 pm 
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Skitch Patterson wrote:
cutuphalfdead wrote:
Man, the Dodgers are fucking crazy.



I started the off season somewhat hoping the Tigers would resign Anibal Sanchez. He then asked for 6/90, and thought they should let him walk. I am now convinced he is going to get 6/100, and under no circumstances do I want them to sign him. He and his contract are going to end a GM's career


When I read that I thought the exact same thing...what I don't understand is why GMs don't play hardball with someone like that...and then offer him a one year 10 million deal in like January...let him sit out the season if he wants

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 4:52 pm 
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I know we live in the world of insanely huge media contracts.... but 147 million dollars for 6 years of Zach Greinke is fucking stupid.

Does he even want to pitch enough to justify that contract? 24.5 million a year to work ONCE every 5 days maybe for 7 innings.....GUARANTEED.

Good work if you can get it I guess.

This pretty much assures the dodgers won't do anything in the postseason. They'll continue looking north to their wiser, thriftier rivals who continue to win championships.

Only 4 times in 7 seasons has he pitched more than 200 innings.

He's appeared in only 3 post season games (where I can't say he actually pitched well)... and they gave this guy 147 million. :shake:

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 7:50 pm 
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In MLB someone like Zach Greinke gets a 6 year contract, meanwhile in the NHL the players are just trying to get the owners to honor the contracts they've already signed.


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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:38 pm 
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MattA751 wrote:
Skitch Patterson wrote:
cutuphalfdead wrote:
Man, the Dodgers are fucking crazy.



I started the off season somewhat hoping the Tigers would resign Anibal Sanchez. He then asked for 6/90, and thought they should let him walk. I am now convinced he is going to get 6/100, and under no circumstances do I want them to sign him. He and his contract are going to end a GM's career


When I read that I thought the exact same thing...what I don't understand is why GMs don't play hardball with someone like that...and then offer him a one year 10 million deal in like January...let him sit out the season if he wants


youd think after that year Ted Lilly, Jeff Suppan, and ummm whomever that 3rd average pitcher was that got huge deals back in the mid 2000's GM's would have learned...

Id never give a pitcher over the age of 27 more than 3 years... unless theyre like Dickey and dont have the ummmm the Tommy John tendon (ulnar whatever) He jokingly said on the Daily Show last week he could probably pitch till hes 70.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Sun Dec 09, 2012 11:41 pm 
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MadTIGERmaN wrote:

youd think after that year Ted Lilly, Jeff Suppan, and ummm whomever that 3rd average pitcher was that got huge deals back in the mid 2000's GM's would have learned...

course those contracts are nothing now days LOL

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Mon Dec 10, 2012 4:50 am 
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Well... I like that the Jays no longer have to face James Shields all the time, but did the Royals just hand over the #1, #3 and #6 prospects from one of the best systems in the league for Shields and Wade Davis? Myers is probably the best hitting prospect in the world right now. I get that they're still only prospects, but the Rays just completely took advantage of a very, very desperate Royals team.

Screw the traditional AL East complaints... I hate that the Jays are in the same division as Andrew Friedman.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Tue Dec 11, 2012 2:16 am 
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PhilPritchard wrote:
Well... I like that the Jays no longer have to face James Shields all the time, but did the Royals just hand over the #1, #3 and #6 prospects from one of the best systems in the league for Shields and Wade Davis? Myers is probably the best hitting prospect in the world right now. I get that they're still only prospects, but the Rays just completely took advantage of a very, very desperate Royals team.

Screw the traditional AL East complaints... I hate that the Jays are in the same division as Andrew Friedman.


Jack Ordrozzi? (going off memory here might not even be close) has now been traded for 2 aces before even getting a cup of water in the big leagues... LOL

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 7:41 pm 
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Reports say Hamilton to the Angels, five years/$125 million.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 8:11 pm 
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And Dempster to the Red Sox. 2/26.5

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