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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:08 pm 
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PhilPritchard wrote:
Well... I like that the Jays no longer have to face James Shields all the time, but did the Royals just hand over the #1, #3 and #6 prospects from one of the best systems in the league for Shields and Wade Davis? Myers is probably the best hitting prospect in the world right now. I get that they're still only prospects, but the Rays just completely took advantage of a very, very desperate Royals team.

Screw the traditional AL East complaints... I hate that the Jays are in the same division as Andrew Friedman.


It took me a few days but I love this trade now. Shields was only under contract for another two years and was the old man of the staff; Davis, pfft--spare part. Tampa's pitching depth will be shallow by their standards next year (although still deeper than Boston's), but I love the prospects we nabbed, especially since our farm team was starting to look a little depleted. And it frees up around $12 to sign the DH and extra bullpen arm we need in the short-term. Between this and the way he's massively overhauled our infield defense, Friedman's doing a hell of a job this year. Of course, talk to me in July, maybe, when we see how this all plays out--but I'm pretty excited right now.

cutuphalfdead wrote:
And Dempster to the Red Sox. 2/26.5


Laugh-out-fucking-loud, John Lackey 2.0.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:17 pm 
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Mickey wrote:
PhilPritchard wrote:
Well... I like that the Jays no longer have to face James Shields all the time, but did the Royals just hand over the #1, #3 and #6 prospects from one of the best systems in the league for Shields and Wade Davis? Myers is probably the best hitting prospect in the world right now. I get that they're still only prospects, but the Rays just completely took advantage of a very, very desperate Royals team.

Screw the traditional AL East complaints... I hate that the Jays are in the same division as Andrew Friedman.


It took me a few days but I love this trade now. Shields was only under contract for another two years and was the old man of the staff; Davis, pfft--spare part. Tampa's pitching depth will be shallow by their standards next year (although still deeper than Boston's), but I love the prospects we nabbed, especially since our farm team was starting to look a little depleted. And it frees up around $12 to sign the DH and extra bullpen arm we need in the short-term. Between this and the way he's massively overhauled our infield defense, Friedman's doing a hell of a job this year. Of course, talk to me in July, maybe, when we see how this all plays out--but I'm pretty excited right now.

cutuphalfdead wrote:
And Dempster to the Red Sox. 2/26.5


Laugh-out-fucking-loud, John Lackey 2.0.


Is Dempster that bad? I'm reading that he's going to have a tough transition to the AL East. At least it's just a two year deal. Lackey was five, I think.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Thu Dec 13, 2012 9:59 pm 
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Coach wrote:
Mickey wrote:
PhilPritchard wrote:
Well... I like that the Jays no longer have to face James Shields all the time, but did the Royals just hand over the #1, #3 and #6 prospects from one of the best systems in the league for Shields and Wade Davis? Myers is probably the best hitting prospect in the world right now. I get that they're still only prospects, but the Rays just completely took advantage of a very, very desperate Royals team.

Screw the traditional AL East complaints... I hate that the Jays are in the same division as Andrew Friedman.


It took me a few days but I love this trade now. Shields was only under contract for another two years and was the old man of the staff; Davis, pfft--spare part. Tampa's pitching depth will be shallow by their standards next year (although still deeper than Boston's), but I love the prospects we nabbed, especially since our farm team was starting to look a little depleted. And it frees up around $12 to sign the DH and extra bullpen arm we need in the short-term. Between this and the way he's massively overhauled our infield defense, Friedman's doing a hell of a job this year. Of course, talk to me in July, maybe, when we see how this all plays out--but I'm pretty excited right now.

cutuphalfdead wrote:
And Dempster to the Red Sox. 2/26.5


Laugh-out-fucking-loud, John Lackey 2.0.


Is Dempster that bad? I'm reading that he's going to have a tough transition to the AL East. At least it's just a two year deal. Lackey was five, I think.


I actually don't think the Sox moves have been all that bad... they're likely only meant as bandaid moves to keep the team relatively competitive, and they've done it without have to give out long-term contracts. If Napoli, Victorino or Dempster don't work out, it shouldn't really hurt the team going forward. I think the best thing they could do would be to tear it down and rebuild, but it's not like signing decent players for a couple years is a horrible option.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:09 am 
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I mean, contract-wise, it's not anywhere near Lackey--and neither are the Napoli and Victorino signings--so in that respect, the Sox are doing okay (i.e. you're right, they work...sort-of...as band-aid solutions). I just meant that Dempster is, like Lackey, overpriced and on the decline. I can't imagine a guy like that (5.09 ERA with Texas last year in 12 games) who's also 35 is going to have much success with Boston. Which is why I said sort-of band-aid solutions. They'll help, but I still think the Sox are more likely to be battling for last than a playoff spot.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 3:14 am 
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Anyone think Dempster's ERA will be below his career mark (4.33) this coming season? I'll be $20 it isn't.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:12 pm 
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Skitch Patterson wrote:
cutuphalfdead wrote:
Man, the Dodgers are fucking crazy.



I started the off season somewhat hoping the Tigers would resign Anibal Sanchez. He then asked for 6/90, and thought they should let him walk. I am now convinced he is going to get 6/100, and under no circumstances do I want them to sign him. He and his contract are going to end a GM's career


5/80--what do you think now?

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Fri Dec 14, 2012 7:36 pm 
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corduroy_blazer wrote:
Anyone think Dempster's ERA will be below his career mark (4.33) this coming season? I'll be $20 it isn't.


I can see it being somewhere around there.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 4:22 pm 
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Mickey wrote:
Skitch Patterson wrote:
cutuphalfdead wrote:
Man, the Dodgers are fucking crazy.



I started the off season somewhat hoping the Tigers would resign Anibal Sanchez. He then asked for 6/90, and thought they should let him walk. I am now convinced he is going to get 6/100, and under no circumstances do I want them to sign him. He and his contract are going to end a GM's career


5/80--what do you think now?



I mean I like the guy, probably the best #4 starter in all of baseball. But thats a whole lot of money with Fister/Scherzer/Verlander all hitting Free Agency in the next 3 years. Im happy he's a Tiger, but don't think its an intelligent contract.


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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 5:44 pm 
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Mickey wrote:
I mean, contract-wise, it's not anywhere near Lackey--and neither are the Napoli and Victorino signings--so in that respect, the Sox are doing okay (i.e. you're right, they work...sort-of...as band-aid solutions). I just meant that Dempster is, like Lackey, overpriced and on the decline. I can't imagine a guy like that (5.09 ERA with Texas last year in 12 games) who's also 35 is going to have much success with Boston. Which is why I said sort-of band-aid solutions. They'll help, but I still think the Sox are more likely to be battling for last than a playoff spot.


Everything is spin with the Red Sox and it's super annoying. That said, the spin around here is that Dempster is projected to eat innings (180) and save the team's staff from pitching too much.

As a fan, I would be perfectly fine with the Sox laying low for a few years to get the ship right again.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Sat Dec 15, 2012 6:39 pm 
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Everyone knows I am not a fan of Cherington at all, but I think the Sox have done a good job this offseason. Aside from the Gomes signing(which I still think was incredibly retarded,) they have done just about as good as they can do without hamstringing themselves with bad long term contracts. I would rather overpay Napoli and Victorino for 3 years, then have Adrian Gonzalez for the next 6 or Josh Hamilton for the next 6(I know he signed for 5, but whatever.) I would rather have Ryan Dempster for 2 years than Zach Greinke for 7. Really, if they could somehow get a 1/2 starter without pissing away the farm system, they would be as much of a contender as anyone else in the AL.


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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 8:49 pm 
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mick7184 wrote:
Everyone knows I am not a fan of Cherington at all, but I think the Sox have done a good job this offseason. Aside from the Gomes signing(which I still think was incredibly retarded,) they have done just about as good as they can do without hamstringing themselves with bad long term contracts. I would rather overpay Napoli and Victorino for 3 years, then have Adrian Gonzalez for the next 6 or Josh Hamilton for the next 6(I know he signed for 5, but whatever.) I would rather have Ryan Dempster for 2 years than Zach Greinke for 7. Really, if they could somehow get a 1/2 starter without pissing away the farm system, they would be as much of a contender as anyone else in the AL.

I'd much, much rather have Gonzo than the combo of Napoli and Victorino. That Gonzo contract was a very good one, so good and appealing that it made an impossible trade possible.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Sun Dec 16, 2012 9:27 pm 
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PhilPritchard wrote:
Well... I like that the Jays no longer have to face James Shields all the time, but did the Royals just hand over the #1, #3 and #6 prospects from one of the best systems in the league for Shields and Wade Davis? Myers is probably the best hitting prospect in the world right now. I get that they're still only prospects, but the Rays just completely took advantage of a very, very desperate Royals team.

Screw the traditional AL East complaints... I hate that the Jays are in the same division as Andrew Friedman.


And now apparently the Jays are making a similar trade for R.A. Dickey. Dickey probably has more upside but more risk than Shields, but the big difference is that the Jays looked like a real contender before the trade, while KC looked to me like a .500ish team.

This makes me think of when the Jays got David Cone for Jeff Kent.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:02 am 
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PhilPritchard wrote:
PhilPritchard wrote:
Well... I like that the Jays no longer have to face James Shields all the time, but did the Royals just hand over the #1, #3 and #6 prospects from one of the best systems in the league for Shields and Wade Davis? Myers is probably the best hitting prospect in the world right now. I get that they're still only prospects, but the Rays just completely took advantage of a very, very desperate Royals team.

Screw the traditional AL East complaints... I hate that the Jays are in the same division as Andrew Friedman.


And now apparently the Jays are making a similar trade for R.A. Dickey. Dickey probably has more upside but more risk than Shields, but the big difference is that the Jays looked like a real contender before the trade, while KC looked to me like a .500ish team.

This makes me think of when the Jays got David Cone for Jeff Kent.


wheres the risk with Dickey? that he'll forget how to throw the canuckle ball (yes, thats a canadian knuckle ball) theres far less health risk with him since he has no Tommy John ligament, and throws the easiest pitch to throw.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 1:36 am 
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MadTIGERmaN wrote:
PhilPritchard wrote:
PhilPritchard wrote:
Well... I like that the Jays no longer have to face James Shields all the time, but did the Royals just hand over the #1, #3 and #6 prospects from one of the best systems in the league for Shields and Wade Davis? Myers is probably the best hitting prospect in the world right now. I get that they're still only prospects, but the Rays just completely took advantage of a very, very desperate Royals team.

Screw the traditional AL East complaints... I hate that the Jays are in the same division as Andrew Friedman.


And now apparently the Jays are making a similar trade for R.A. Dickey. Dickey probably has more upside but more risk than Shields, but the big difference is that the Jays looked like a real contender before the trade, while KC looked to me like a .500ish team.

This makes me think of when the Jays got David Cone for Jeff Kent.


wheres the risk with Dickey? that he'll forget how to throw the canuckle ball (yes, thats a canadian knuckle ball) theres far less health risk with him since he has no Tommy John ligament, and throws the easiest pitch to throw.


Well I think the risk comes in his essentially unprecedented career arc... it`s hard to predict future performance when no one has ever seen his past performance before. It`s like the risk the Jays took in extending Bautista and Encarnacion after their breakout seasons. That`s the way Anthopoulos operates, though.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 4:20 am 
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Coach wrote:
mick7184 wrote:
Everyone knows I am not a fan of Cherington at all, but I think the Sox have done a good job this offseason. Aside from the Gomes signing(which I still think was incredibly retarded,) they have done just about as good as they can do without hamstringing themselves with bad long term contracts. I would rather overpay Napoli and Victorino for 3 years, then have Adrian Gonzalez for the next 6 or Josh Hamilton for the next 6(I know he signed for 5, but whatever.) I would rather have Ryan Dempster for 2 years than Zach Greinke for 7. Really, if they could somehow get a 1/2 starter without pissing away the farm system, they would be as much of a contender as anyone else in the AL.

I'd much, much rather have Gonzo than the combo of Napoli and Victorino. That Gonzo contract was a very good one, so good and appealing that it made an impossible trade possible.


The Dodgers will be very sorry that they made that trade, just as much because of the Gonzalez contract as the Crawford one. Gonzalez is a lazy stiff that completely vanishes when games start mattering. He also has injury ridden malingerer written all over him once he hits the back end of that deal. I was just as happy to get rid of Gonzalez as I was Beckett and Crawford, he would have been as much of an albatross as any bad contract the Red Sox have signed in the last 10 years.


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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:28 am 
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mick7184 wrote:
Coach wrote:
mick7184 wrote:
Everyone knows I am not a fan of Cherington at all, but I think the Sox have done a good job this offseason. Aside from the Gomes signing(which I still think was incredibly retarded,) they have done just about as good as they can do without hamstringing themselves with bad long term contracts. I would rather overpay Napoli and Victorino for 3 years, then have Adrian Gonzalez for the next 6 or Josh Hamilton for the next 6(I know he signed for 5, but whatever.) I would rather have Ryan Dempster for 2 years than Zach Greinke for 7. Really, if they could somehow get a 1/2 starter without pissing away the farm system, they would be as much of a contender as anyone else in the AL.

I'd much, much rather have Gonzo than the combo of Napoli and Victorino. That Gonzo contract was a very good one, so good and appealing that it made an impossible trade possible.


The Dodgers will be very sorry that they made that trade, just as much because of the Gonzalez contract as the Crawford one. Gonzalez is a lazy stiff that completely vanishes when games start mattering. He also has injury ridden malingerer written all over him once he hits the back end of that deal. I was just as happy to get rid of Gonzalez as I was Beckett and Crawford, he would have been as much of an albatross as any bad contract the Red Sox have signed in the last 10 years.


Based on his stats, that's simply not true. His splits in high/medium/low leverage situations are roughly in line with David Ortiz and Dustin Pedroia, as his numbers over his career (and over his time in Boston) are at their best in high leverage situations.

Then I assumed the perception was based on the 2011 collapse and realized he OPSed .977 in September of 2011. So I kind of don't get it.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 5:55 pm 
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I don't really care what the splits say, I watched the actual games. The guy is useless when you need a hit an pads his numbers in blowouts. My perfect example of Gonzalez was last year in an 18 inning game when he was struck out on 3 pitches by orioles 1b Chris Davis with the winning run on base, he didn't just strike out he was completely overmatched by a position player. There's a reason Gonzalez has been traded by every team he's played for, even with those fantastic splits.


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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:10 pm 
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mick7184 wrote:
I don't really care what the splits say, I watched the actual games. The guy is useless when you need a hit an pads his numbers in blowouts. My perfect example of Gonzalez was last year in an 18 inning game when he was struck out on 3 pitches by orioles 1b Chris Davis with the winning run on base, he didn't just strike out he was completely overmatched by a position player. There's a reason Gonzalez has been traded by every team he's played for, even with those fantastic splits.


Ive only heard people from Boston say this... and they say that about everyone they trade away if they fail to win it all...

San Diego was ready to fry the GM for trading away the home town slugger I thought

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 6:26 pm 
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mick7184 wrote:
I don't really care what the splits say, I watched the actual games. The guy is useless when you need a hit an pads his numbers in blowouts. My perfect example of Gonzalez was last year in an 18 inning game when he was struck out on 3 pitches by orioles 1b Chris Davis with the winning run on base, he didn't just strike out he was completely overmatched by a position player. There's a reason Gonzalez has been traded by every team he's played for, even with those fantastic splits.


I think people tend to base an opinion on a few stand-out moments... you see him strike out against Chris Davis and in a few other close games, you see him hit some big homeruns in blowouts and you come to the conclusion that he disappears in big games. But honestly... I get that you watched the games, but baseball is a sport where there are so many games and situations and outcomes that you need to look at the stats if you want to have an accurate idea of how a player performed. If his numbers in close-and-late situations match his overall numbers, how can you say that he doesn't perform in clutch situations?

That last sentence is just stupid. I guess the only reason for any player to be traded is because he's not good.

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 Post subject: Re: 2012 MLB Thread
PostPosted: Mon Dec 17, 2012 9:40 pm 
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It's not stupid at all, if he was so fucking fantastic he wouldnt have been traded 4 times before he hit age 30. Dont you think it's a bit odd that a team like the Red Sox was so happy to get rid of him? This is not a small market team, it's the Red Sox. Everyone acts like they had to bite the bullet and give up Gonzalez to rid themselves of the Crawford and Beckett deals, getting rid of Gonzalez' contract was just as big as getting rid of the other two. The Marlins traded him for Ugeth Urbina, who was a good closer, but you dont trade a player you think is going to be a franchise player just to get a good closer for the stretch run. The Rangers traded him for a medicore starter and a decent reliever, and the Red Sox couldnt ship him out of town fast enough after the Dodgers claimed him. San Diego is the only team that traded him for a big haul, and the only reason they got a haul that big for him was because Theo had such a huge crush on him, no one else would have emptied their farm system to get him. A double in a 3-2 game in April might look the same as a double in a 3-2 game in September as far as the stats go, but it isnt, and anyone who thinks it is is fooling themselves. It isnt even just about the numbers, the guy is a fucking cooler. Everywhere he goes the team goes to shit. His last year with the Padres, they were having a good year until he came back from injury, and then they fell apart. The Red Sox became a laughingstock once they built their team around him, and the Dodgers hit the skids last year after that trade. After a season in which he completely fell apart in the second half and disappeared as his team was spinning down the drain to a historic collapse, Gonzalez bitched about having to play too many night games and how winning wasn't "God's plan." Watch Adrian Gonzalez run out a ground ball and tell me that's a guy you'd want to build a team around. He is probably the biggest fools gold player in the game, I was just as excited to get him as anyone else when the Red Sox made that move, but once I saw him everyday for a season and half I couldnt have been happier to see him go. I dont see Florida, Texas, San Diego, or Boston shedding any tears about losing him. I still cant believe they got the Dodgers to agree to one of the most lopsided trades I've ever seen, it amounted to a TARP bailout for the Red Sox.


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