Ok so I'm from Venezuela and I got a reference by somebody in the PJ chat about how good Chavez, our mighty president is. I disagreed and Stip suggested me I open the discussion here.

I’m very interested to hear what is your perception of what is going on here (and in some other countries in Latin America) where populism, militarism, and nationalism are gaining a lot of space in the political arena.

I can see why people may support one of those trends and I can respect that. However it is not the same case for Chavez supporters as they consider enemies whoever thinks different to their regime.

Middle class is going away either by becoming poor or actually going aboard for better opportunities. Education and other institutions in general are corrupted and only partially functioning. It is a shame as our country was blessed with resources (oil, gas, gold, agriculture, etc)

Discuss.

I just sent a PM to Stip talking about this....I loath populism, Im tired of this plague in South America

José Ignácio Abreu e Lima is my direct ancestor, he helped Simon Bolivar in fighting the spanish troops, back here in Brazil he fought for freedom of press....so what Hugo Chavez with his "bolivarism" does? He censorships the press!! The motherfuckin is ruining what my ancestor fought for with the audacity of calling "bolivarism" the irresponsible shit he is doing!

Good to hear from someone who has firsthand experience. I'm not impressed by Chavez, either.

I got a question, though: wasn't the continent on a "right-wing" swing a few decades ago? Maybe it's just the pendulum swinging the other way.

I'll have to search through PJ Chat and see some of your discussions: I know I'm interested. I remember doing a report on Venezuela when I was 10 years old, but I don't remember the details.

And something that worries me a lot abou Venezuela is that its economy rely only in the Oil, while the commerce and industry is bankrupted. History proves that nations which only relies in natural resources are doomed to failure.

well chavez is apparently doing at decent job fighting poverty

from Center for Economic and Policy Research -

http://www.cepr.net/publications/venezuelan_poverty_rates_2006_05.pdf

- The household poverty rate was thus reduced by nearly 5 percentage points, or 12.9 percent, from 42.8 percent in the first half of 1999 (when President Chavez took office) to 37.9 percent in the second half of 2005. Since the economy has continued to grow rapidly this year (first quarter growth came in at 9.4 percent), the poverty rate is almost certainly significantly lower today.

- The reduction in poverty noted above, since 1999, measures only cash income. This, however, does not really capture the changes in the living standards of the poor in Venezuela, since there have been major changes in non-cash benefits and services in the last few years - for example health care is now provided to an estimated 54 percent of the population. The paper looks briefly at the impact of these changes.

Oh that is great to hear. I actually may have an ancestor (Rafael Urdaneta) who helped Bolivar as well but I’m not 100% sure.

His new law about press is very limitative to the point you can not show some type of images in TV (considered offensive) until 10 or 11 pm. we are talking about plain vanilla news here.

He actually is not talking to any other reporter than the official ones (Channel 8 is a state owned media) and those are the only one with access to his agenda and press conferences.

So yes....He is all about freedom

That is just one side of the history. With the prices of oil from 10 to 60$ we should be eating gold. The basic services as health care and security just doesn't work. You either have a very expensive insurance policy or you better have a friend in the government so you can get a free operation. But all of these "favors" do nothing for the institutions that are actually weaker now. He wants the power for himself and nothing more. HE receives requests even in a press conference and he actually grants some of those directly. That makes him look like a good for those uneducated. He should make sure the proper government agency handles whatever necessity you have as a citizen. PDVSA the state own company is the bigger case of corruption there is. You can’t even get into the door if you admit you are not a “cahvista”. You are immediately fired if you don’t follow the political direction. More than 5o% of your job performance evaluation are related to social work (meaning if you attend to political speeches, government party meeting or another government sponsored activity.

And no, poverty is way worst now as the middle class is slowly disappearing or migrating to other places.

Totally correct. That pendulum is fucking us real hard.!!!

Feel free to ask or post your comments......

I think I'll have quite a few, if you don't mind.

--Chavez is up for re-election in 2006. Is he likely going to win, and my how wide of a margin? Could he get enough power in this election to make constitutional changes and inch closer to a totatitarian?

--Could there be another civil uprising in the future like the general strike that went down not too long ago?

--You say the middle class is leaving. Where are they going to? Also, which industry sectors are feeling the pain from such departure?

It really is very hard for me to comment on South American politics, considering there's minimal coverage in the media here. I understand Evo Morales is nationalising various businesses in a push for the poor, which may be a good thing considering that country's status as the poorest SA nation, but at the same time he doesn't seem to be such a big supporter of eradicating coca, which is obviously not good for the drug war.

From what I've read, the Peruvian leadership is right-leaning.

Kirshner and Lula seem to have a fairly popular hold on their leftist leadership, and I guess they wouldn't be so popular if it's not working out for their people.

There's a great article in the USA Today about the nationalization of oil and other industries in Venezuala, Ecuador, and Bolivia. That article took the stance that it was very bad. The shift in resources has hit the economy hard. Inflation in Venezuala is through the roof, which exceeded the increase in real incomes. Crime is atrocious now. But the big deal, was that these nations are destroying foreign investment. They played the "The first world is coming in, raping our land, and stealing our money!" and it worked. Well, when they nationalized it, these leaders eliminated the private sector entirely, removed experts that had been working in these companies for years, and put politico's in their place. Insiders in the oil industry say that that in and of itself will kill the oil industry. Already oil production, foreign investment, and efficiency have fallen in Venezuala.

This is true at face value. As I understand it, Chavez has basically taken the investments and businesses of foreign (read: European/US) corporations and the middle and upper class and nationalized them. He then redistributes this money to poorest classes in his nation, in essence buying their votes. So while from a pure numbers standpoint, the poverty rate has been lowered, it's at the expense of sustainable long term development and investment (hence the huge inflation). This is really too bad because I have heard from several people the Venezuela is an absolutely gorgeous nation.



I think Lula seems to have found a middle ground between the populist poor and the capitalist rich. I don't know enough about his long term planning to comment on whether or not I think his policies are sound for the future.

*

Perhaps Jurd99 can comment on this, but i have read the Chavez has been arming civilian militias to help fight 'the US invasion'. I think the real reason is to create a second army to fight for him should the regular armed forces be infiltrated by the CIA again and launching another uprising.

Another aspect of this that I find fascinating is that no one talks about Mexico when talking about populist/socialist politics in South/Central America. The ruling government in Mexico works very hard to suppress these movements, and they are gaining in strength every year. I wonder what the effect on the US economy would be if Mexico elected a Chavez-like ruler. Some commentators have suggested that allowing Mexico's poor into the US to work keeps them from supporting political upheaval in their own nations. Essentially, allowing the migrant workers to cross into the US and work here, then return the money home, keeps them from voting in the property redistribution that is going on in Venezuela. From that perspective, maybe a guest worker program isn’t all that bad.

As I'm sure jurd could comment on, there's a lot that goes on in Venezuela that doesn't get much coverage here.

http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pi ... news_index

http://web.amnesty.org/library/eng-ven/index

http://hrw.org/english/docs/2006/01/18/venezu12258.htm

http://www.mg.co.za/articlepage.aspx?ar ... eid=269741

That's basically exactly what I was going to say.

This movement may help the poorest of the poor, but it simply makes them poor, not destitute, as well as everyone else in the population. In the long run, this sort of extreme leftist nationalization leads to make everyone equally poorly off.

[/url]http://forums.theskyiscrape.com/viewtopic.php?t=42585[url]


I was impressed by this documentary about the coup against Chavez. Now, i'm pretty sure Chavez is no saint either, but he does seem to do a much better job than any of the previous/rival political leaders in Venezuela.

Helping the poorest parts of the population should be the first priority - nobody should have to live in povertry in a country like Venezuela. The rich will still be rich..making a little less won't kill them. I suppose the middle classes carry the biggest burden, but a fair and functional democratic society is not an easy thing to achieve. Sacrifices must be made.

I'm most concerned about the lack of democratic traditions and stability in South America. Consider what happened to Chavez: a democratically elected president was removed from power just like that, with no respect whatsoever for the constitution, and they almost got away with it. I mean, as long as there are significant quantities of people who think that coups like that are acceptable, you're never more than one step away from a military dictatorship.[/url]

I gotta be honest. There's a world of difference being poor and destitute. I'd much rather be poor myself. I can easily see how just providing basic services in some of these places would support enormous votes.

Damned right.

The problem with South America is that the people there have been raped for so many decades by American and European industrialists who didn't give a flying fuck about them and it made them destitute.

So now they go completely the other end of the spectrum in a vain attempt to right the wrongs of the past. But of course, the left in Latin America goes too far as well and while spreading the wealth, they cut off the flow of investment capital, so while things become more equal, there is less to spread around.

You need to have both forces working together, balancing off each other, in order to grow an economy.

Populism really wants to make everybody equal...by making everybody poor.


This populist thing isnt new by no means, Brazil had Vargas, Argetina had Péron and the list goes on...

Chavez only has respect for the constitution when is good for him, when its not, he dump it in the garbage.

Good Things Happening in Venezuela April 04, 2005
By Michael Parenti

Even before I arrived in Venezuela for a recent visit, I encountered
the great class divide that besets that country. On my connecting flight
from Miami to Caracas, I found myself seated next to an attractive,
exquisitely dressed Venezuelan woman. Judging from her prosperous aspect, I anticipated that she would take the first opportunity to hold forth against President Hugo Chavez. Unfortunately, I was right.

Our conversation moved along famously until we got to the political
struggle going on in Venezuela. "Chavez," she hissed, "is terrible,
terrible." He is "a liar"; he "fools the people" and is "ruining the
country." She herself owns an upscale women's fashion company with
links to prominent firms in the United States.

When I asked how Chavez has hurt her business, she said, "Not at all."
But many other businesses, she quickly added, have been irreparably damaged
as has the whole economy. She went on denouncing Chavez in sweeping terms,
warning me of the national disaster to come if this demon continued to=20
have his way.

Other critics I encountered in Venezuela shared this same mode of
attack: weak on specifics but strong in venom, voiced with all the ferocity of those who fear that their birthrights (that is, their class advantages) are under siege because others below them on the social ladder are getting a slightly larger slice of the pie.

In Venezuela over 80 percent live below the poverty level. Before
Chavez,most of the poor had never seen a doctor or dentist. Their children
neverwent to school, since they could not afford the annual fees. The
neoliberal market "adjustments" of the 1980s and 1990s only made things
worse, cutting social spending and eliminating subsidies in consumer goods.

Successive administrations did nothing about the rampant corruption and
nothing about the growing gap between rich and poor, the growing malnutrition and desperation. Far from ruining the country, here are some
of the good things the Chavez government has accomplished:

- A land reform program designed to assist small farmers and the
landless poor has been instituted. Just this month (March 2005) a large landed
estate owned by a British beef company was occupied by agrarian workers
for farming purposes.

- Education is now free (right through to university level), causing a
dramatic increase in grade school enrollment.

- The government has set up a marine conservation program, and is
taking steps to protect the land and fishing rights of indigenous peoples.

- Special banks now assist small enterprises, worker cooperatives, and farmers.

- Attempts to further privatize the state-run oil industry - 80 percent
of which is still publicly owned---have been halted, and limits have been placed on foreign capital penetration.

- Chavez kicked out the U.S. military advisors and prohibited
overflights by U.S. military aircraft engaged in counterinsurgency in Colombia.

- "Bolivarian Circles" have been organized throughout the nation,
neighborhood committees designed to activate citizens at the community
level to assist in literacy, education, vaccination campaigns, and
other public services.

- The government hires unemployed men, on a temporary basis, to repair
streets and neglected drainage and water systems in poor neighborhoods.

Then there is the health program. I visited a dental clinic in Chavez's
home state of Barinas. The staff consisted of four dentists, two of
whom were young Venezuelan women. The other two were Cuban men who were
there on a one-year program.

The Venezuelan dentists noted that in earlier times dentists did not
have enough work. There were millions of people who needed treatment, but
care was severely rationed by the private market, that is, by one's ability
to pay. Dental care was distributed like any other commodity, not to
everyone who needed it but only to those who could afford it.

When the free clinic in Barinas first opened it was flooded with people
seeking dental care. No one was turned away. Even opponents of the
Chavezgovernment availed themselves of the free service, temporarily puttingaside their political aversions.

Many of the doctors and dentists who work in the barrio clinics (along with some of the clinical supplies and pharmaceuticals) come from Cuba.
Chavez has also put Venezuelan military doctors and dentists to work in
the free clinics.

Meanwhile, much of the Venezuelan medical establishment is vehemently
opposed to the free-clinic program, seeing it as a Cuban communist
campaign to undermine medical standards and physicians' earnings. That low-income people are receiving medical and dental care for the first time
in their lives does not seem to be a consideration that carries much
weight among the more "professionally minded" practitioners.

I visited one of the government-supported community food stores that
are located around the country, mostly in low income areas. These modest establishments sell canned goods, pasta, beans, rice, and some produce
and fruits at well below the market price, a blessing in a society with widespread malnutrition.

Popular food markets have eliminated the layers of middlemen and madestaples more affordable for residents. Most of these markets are run by
women. The government also created a state-financed bank whose function
is to provide low-income women with funds to start cooperatives in their communities.

There is a growing number of worker cooperatives. One in Caracas was
started by turning a waste dump into a shoe factory and a T-shirt
factory. Financed with money from the Petroleum Ministry, the coop has put about
a thousand people to work. The workers seem enthusiastic and hopeful.

Surprisingly, many Venezuelans know relatively little about the worker0
cooperatives. Or perhaps it's not surprising, given the near monopoly
that private capital has over the print and broadcast media. The wealthy
media moguls, all vehemently anti-Chavez, own four of the five television
stations and all the major newspapers.

The man most responsible for Venezuela's revolutionary developments,
Hugo Chavez, has been accorded the usual ad hominem treatment in the U.S.
newsmedia. An article in the San Francisco Chronicle (12 September 2004) described him as "Venezuela's pugnacious president." An earlier
Chronicle report (30 November 2001) quotes a political opponent who calls Chavez
"a psychopath, a terribly aggressive guy."

The London Financial Times (12 January 2002) sees him as "increasingly
autocratic" and presiding over something called a "rogue democracy."

In the Nation (6 May 2002), Marc Cooper---one of those Cold War
liberals who nowadays regularly defends the U.S. empire - writes that the democratically-elected Chavez speaks "often as a thug," who "flirts
with megalomania." Chavez's behavior, Cooper rattles on, "borders on theparanoiac," is "ham-fisted demagogy" acted out with an "increasinglyautocratic style." Like so many critics, Cooper downplays Chavez's accomplishments, and uses name-calling in place of informed analysis.

Other media mouthpieces have labeled Chavez "mercurial," "besieged," "heavy-handed," "incompetent," and "dictatorial," a "barracks populist," a"strongman," a "firebrand," and, above all, a "leftist." It is never explained what "leftist" means.

A leftist is someone who advocates a more equitable distribution of
social resources and human services, and who supports the kinds of programs
thatthe Chavez government is putting in place. (Likewise a rightist is
someonewho opposes such programs and seeks to advance the insatiable
privilegesof private capital and the wealthy few.)

The term "leftist" is frequently bandied about in the U.S. media but
seldom defined. The power of the label is in its remaining undefined,
allowing it to have an abstracted built-in demonizing impact which precludes rational examination of its political content.

The leftist Hugo Chavez whose public talks I attended on three
occasions proved to be an educated, articulate, remarkably well-informed and well-read individual. Of big heart, deep human feeling, and keen intellect, he manifests a sincere dedication to effecting some salutary changes for the great mass of his people, a man who in every aspect
seems worthy of the decent and peaceful democratic revolution he is leading.

Millions of his compatriots widely and correctly perceive him as being
theonly president who has ever paid attention to the nation's poorest
areas. No wonder he is the target of calumny and coup from the upper echelons
in his own country and from ruling circles up north.

Chavez charges that the United States government is plotting to assassinate him. I can believe it.

* * * * * * * * * *

Here's The Revolution Will Not Be Televised. I'd recommend it for a different perspective on what occured in Venezuela:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 5689805144