Post subject: Criticizing America's Educational System
Posted: Sun Jun 25, 2006 3:50 pm
Johnny Guitar
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:26 am Posts: 238
My highschool alma mater recently held it's 2006 graduation and the valedictorian gave a highly controversial speech that has sent the local region into a series of debates discussing the educational system. Rather than praising the education he received, he questioned why at the highschool level our education does not inquire further into complex philosophic and moral issues instead choosing to focus on supposed life skills such as memorizing the dates of major events.
He called for an education that would search for the answers to such questions as "What is the right way to live? What is the ideal society? What principles should guide my behavior? What is success, what is failure? Is there a creator, if so, should we look to it for guidance?" He asks that we look for answers as to why writers wrote the stories that they did rather than why the characters in such storie take the actions that they take.
My highschool has been highly regarded as one of the premier schools in New Jersey, winning awards and ranking nationally in several fields. And yet I left the school with many of the same questions as he did, instead having knowledge of the War of 1812 that I have long forgotten. With standardized tests such as the SATs and the SAT IIs, placing so much focus on these details, it leaves little time to answer greater questions. I question how we could improve such a system and figured that this might be a nice place to continue the debate.
Here is a reaction from a local paper regarding the speech.
Principal interrupts valedictorian's criticism of Mainland By REGINA SCHAFFER Staff Writer, (609) 272-7211 Published: Thursday, June 22, 2006 Updated: Thursday, June 22, 2006
Kareem Elnahal learned a lesson Tuesday night — even in graduation, the school still rules. The class valedictorian surprised administrators and his fellow 2006 graduates at Mainland Regional High School when he opted to give an unapproved speech criticizing the school. Mainland, Elnahal said, does not encourage intellectual thought and the exchange of ideas. The senior, in a detailed speech that referenced philosphers and ethics principles, referred to his education as “entirely hollow.†The speech was interrupted by the principal, and Elnahal cut his remarks short and left the ceremony. Mainland principal Robert Blake said the speech insulted Elnahal’s classmates. “That was so hypocritical of him to make that statement,†Blake said. “It was an insult to everyone here at this school ... he made inflammatory comments about the school in general.†Reached at his home Wednesday, Elnahal said he regrets the way the situation unfolded. He was embarassed and apologetic. “I put the principal in a very uncomfortable position — he’s a very nice guy, actually — I feel bad,†Elnahal said. “I feel bad that he had to deal with this.†“I just wanted to finish up, I felt pretty guilty,†he said. “I felt embarassed that the ceremony had to happen this way. It’s supposed to be a day of celebration.†At the same time, Elnahal said he is glad he had the opportunity to make his point. “I went to two parties last night, and I’m their hero now,†he said. “I felt like this was the right thing to do,†Elnahal said. “I couldn’t show the speech (to officials) beforehand because they would have rejected it. I could tell by the reaction from students that they felt the same way. I had to express it or I felt that nothing would change.†In Elnahal’s original approved speech, he was to touch on the high and low points of school and the experiences that moved the class to maturity. But once he took the podium, Elnahal changed gears and began to speak about the shortcomings of the American education system — specifically, at Mainland, a school that prides itself as being one of the premier area high schools. “In my reflection ... and I have reflected on this a great deal, I found that many of life’s important questions are ignored here,†Elnahal said, according to a copy of the alternate speech he provided to The Press. He went on to say, “I speak today not to rant, complain or cause trouble ... rather, I was moved by the countless hours wasted in those halls.†Blake said he and other administrators realized after a few moments that Elnahal’s speech was different than what was approved. Blake said he approached Elnahal, let him know he was disappointed with what he was saying, and asked him to wrap up his speech. Elnahal described the incident the same way. After he finished the speech, Elnahal walked off the stage and left the school grounds by his own choice. “I thought it would be better for the ceremony to go on without me,†he said. Blake noted that the very education system Elnahal criticized helped him get into Princeton University. “He conveyed that he felt his education was worthless,†Blake said. “We have an outstanding education system here.†Blake said the audience had a mixed reaction to Elnahal’s comments. Some yelled comments regarding freedom of speech after the speech was interrupted. Blake said he heard some students cheering and applauding Elnahal’s comments. “I truly don’t believe they understood what he was saying,†Blake said. “My hope was they did not hear or understand what he was saying. Whether it was intentional or not, he was belittling the diplomas of every one of those kids.†Blake said that as with every valedictorian’s speech, there is a process of review to make sure the speech is appropriate. Elnahal’s original speech was approved. “This is a school (sanctioned) program,†Blake said. “We give them latitude. However, to say inflammatory things — no, I won’t allow that. We have several thousand people in the stands.†“He has a right to his comments, but he shouldn’t have been using that pulpit to put forth his limited viewpoint,†Blake said. “Hopefully people kept it in context.†David Hudson, a research attorney at First Amendment Center, said it is difficult to say in a situation like this who is right and who is wrong. “The question becomes whether (the student’s) speech is student initiated or school sponsored,†Hudson said. “It’s a hazy issue.†Hudson noted that students do not have full First Ammendment protection, and do not have the right to say whatever they want at a school event. But at the same time, disliking a student’s speech is not a reason to stop it, Hudson said. If there was substantial concern that the student’s words could cause a problem, then someone has a right to step in, Hudson said. Blake said that Elnahal’s diploma still is at Mainland. He has not yet contacted the school about obtaining it. “I guess I have to go pick it up,†Elnahal said.
By the way, I am friends with and graduated with his older brother and pleasure of speaking with this young man on a few occasions, and he is quite brilliant (a term I rarely apply to anyone), far beyond his years. The principal on the other hand is a man often referred to as Hitler by the students for his stubborn ways.
Last edited by Kosermoser on Mon Jun 26, 2006 1:37 am, edited 1 time in total.
I think the question you should ask yourself is...do you really want teachers teaching that sort of thing. That's something that could be potentially very dangerous.
If done right, it could be very good. I don't think such a concept would be recieved well though. "When am I ever gonna need trig at the grocery store." Well, "When am I ever gonna need understand complex philosophical debate at the grocery store."
Honestly, I think college is a more appropriate environment for that, and I do think that high school should be more about pushing formula's and packing knowledge. Teenagers are almost always inept at forming well thought out opinions on a rational level.
I think the question you should ask yourself is...do you really want teachers teaching that sort of thing. That's something that could be potentially very dangerous.
If done right, it could be very good. I don't think such a concept would be recieved well though. "When am I ever gonna need trig at the grocery store." Well, "When am I ever gonna need understand complex philosophical debate at the grocery store."
Honestly, I think college is a more appropriate environment for that, and I do think that high school should be more about pushing formula's and packing knowledge. Teenagers are almost always inept at forming well thought out opinions on a rational level.
I agree that they are dangerous questions to ask. But I also believe that the reason that we hide our children from these answers are that they are the really important questions to ask. I had these debates with friends in highschool and I can honestly say that I wish I were open to some of the ideas that we are opened to in college. We formulate much of who we are in highschool and should that include being opened to these ideas for more than just a blurb in some text somewhere. We have some form of philosphic debate every day of our lives, why shouldn't we learn this as much as trig at a young age.
I really should transcribe the whole speech as he goes on to address these ideas. But at the same time I think the really important and more plausible question he brings forth is when he asked why authors write the material that they write and why rather than study the flow of different intellectual ideas we study the war we make.
Also I don't believe teenagers are inept by their very nature, I believe that we create them by not challenging them with these questions. I chose my religion, my moral systems, my political views, basically everything that I am as a teenager. I think a lot of people did.
i dont think its so much the system as it is the students. your friends brother represents what about 2% of his schools population in regards to his level of understanding and thirst for knowledge? the other 98% dont even want to memorize simple dates, its too much work, i dont wanna do that, i want to go to the party blah blah blah.
call it what you want, but kids today always look for the easy way out, the same they have for generations before and its never going to change.
once you get into college, then you have the philosophical debates, the what ifs? and so on, where you will have more than just one person in the class who is interested in different ideas on that given subject.
The funnest thing about this thread is that educational is spelled wrong. Not that that matters...tis the interweb that does it, and it happens to all of us....but it's fun.
So...
1. Schools are incapable of requiring more from students than society is prepared to expect. In many places, a failing student must be past on to the next grade if the parents request it. Last year 11 students failed my class, and all of them were past on by their parents...mostly, for fears of social isolation or stigma. Two years before that, a parent tried to get me fired because her son had a D. If you wanted schools to go as deep as that, it would require a lot sterner approach from society in general (which is very forgiving and soft on teens) and parents especially.
2. The brain is still in developmental stages on into the early 20's, so for most people that degree of abstract thinking is impossible at that age. For some, it will always be. Maybe offering more philosophy optional courses would be the route to go. But those will cost money, and these days the only way you'll get it budgeted is to make it an AP course...in which case every parent in town will try to stuff their unprepared kid into it.
i dont think its so much the system as it is the students. your friends brother represents what about 2% of his schools population in regards to his level of understanding and thirst for knowledge? the other 98% dont even want to memorize simple dates, its too much work, i dont wanna do that, i want to go to the party blah blah blah.
call it what you want, but kids today always look for the easy way out, the same they have for generations before and its never going to change.
once you get into college, then you have the philosophical debates, the what ifs? and so on, where you will have more than just one person in the class who is interested in different ideas on that given subject.
Perhaps the answer then is to look at how we position kids in school. Maybe the Magnet system available in some regions need to be further developed throughout the country. I know in highschool I saw the same 30 kids throughout the day, having taken advanced placement courses. And yes our level of thought exceded that of the most of school, but a majority of us still desired that it be pushed further. However due to the fact that we were constantly prepping for these standardized tests, we were unable to explore those areas.
The funnest thing about this thread is that educational is spelled wrong. Not that that matters...tis the interweb that does it, and it happens to all of us....but it's fun.
So...
1. Schools are incapable of requiring more from students than society is prepared to expect. In many places, a failing student must be past on to the next grade if the parents request it. Last year 11 students failed my class, and all of them were past on by their parents...mostly, for fears of social isolation or stigma. Two years before that, a parent tried to get me fired because her son had a D. If you wanted schools to go as deep as that, it would require a lot sterner approach from society in general (which is very forgiving and soft on teens) and parents especially.
2. The brain is still in developmental stages on into the early 20's, so for most people that degree of abstract thinking is impossible at that age. For some, it will always be. Maybe offering more philosophy optional courses would be the route to go. But those will cost money, and these days the only way you'll get it budgeted is to make it an AP course...in which case every parent in town will try to stuff their unprepared kid into it.
The funnest thing about this thread is that educational is spelled wrong. Not that that matters...tis the interweb that does it, and it happens to all of us....but it's fun.
So...
1. Schools are incapable of requiring more from students than society is prepared to expect. In many places, a failing student must be past on to the next grade if the parents request it. Last year 11 students failed my class, and all of them were past on by their parents...mostly, for fears of social isolation or stigma. Two years before that, a parent tried to get me fired because her son had a D. If you wanted schools to go as deep as that, it would require a lot sterner approach from society in general (which is very forgiving and soft on teens) and parents especially.
2. The brain is still in developmental stages on into the early 20's, so for most people that degree of abstract thinking is impossible at that age. For some, it will always be. Maybe offering more philosophy optional courses would be the route to go. But those will cost money, and these days the only way you'll get it budgeted is to make it an AP course...in which case every parent in town will try to stuff their unprepared kid into it.
past is also supposed to be passed
Hahahaha. This thread is awesome. You should just be impressed that I typed all that one-handed while holding my baby.
Last edited by McParadigm on Sun Jun 25, 2006 5:47 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Perhaps the answer then is to look at how we position kids in school. Maybe the Magnet system available in some regions need to be further developed throughout the country. I know in highschool I saw the same 30 kids throughout the day, having taken advanced placement courses. And yes our level of thought exceded that of the most of school, but a majority of us still desired that it be pushed further. However due to the fact that we were constantly prepping for these standardized tests, we were unable to explore those areas.
so should schools cater to the few or the many? just because you and your friends feel you were beyond your classmates is in now way a legit reason to make things harder on those who struggle just to get C's.
they have special schools for you brain types, prep schools, that offer a much more challenging course load, but we are talking about, i presume, the public school system.
its tough enough to get students to pay attention and retain information that seems simplisitic enough to the average person, but not everyone is average, therein lies the problem
I honestly thought this was going to be about the deteriorating grading system in our country and how if a majority of kids can't pass a class, they reduce the level needed to pass.
I'm much more worried about that than I am about philosophy courses.
Perhaps the answer then is to look at how we position kids in school. Maybe the Magnet system available in some regions need to be further developed throughout the country. I know in highschool I saw the same 30 kids throughout the day, having taken advanced placement courses. And yes our level of thought exceded that of the most of school, but a majority of us still desired that it be pushed further. However due to the fact that we were constantly prepping for these standardized tests, we were unable to explore those areas.
so should schools cater to the few or the many? just because you and your friends feel you were beyond your classmates is in now way a legit reason to make things harder on those who struggle just to get C's.
they have special schools for you brain types, prep schools, that offer a much more challenging course load, but we are talking about, i presume, the public school system.
its tough enough to get students to pay attention and retain information that seems simplisitic enough to the average person, but not everyone is average, therein lies the problem
I have always been a proponent of a system which should push students. Prep schools are nice but not for everyone. Let's face it, not all parents can pay for their child to go to expensive prep schools and additionally some areas do not even have a local prep school. Furthermore many prep schools have simply become a bastion for the rich as a means for exclusivity.
My fear is that public schools have simply become a means by which to prolong one's entry into the work force. If a student in highschool doesn't care to continue their pursuit of knowledge, I would fully argue for their right to drop out rather than dillute the educational value of the school system.
My high school prides itself on the number of young adults that it sends to college, I question whether this is something that should be celebrated. Should everyone go to college or are there those that would be better suited entering the work force directly? I am more proud of my one friend who did realize that college was not for them and did choose to begin working than my friend who went to Yale just because they could get in and have no idea what they are doing with their life and ahve a nice $100,000 debt.
We are so quick to launch attacks on groups for of people excelling at different aspects of life, not realizing that each person has different strengths. I think our society would be much better off if we chose to embrace our various strengths.
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:15 pm Posts: 25452 Location: Under my wing like Sanford & Son Gender: Male
I definitely agree with you, Koser. I think we should adopt the German school system, as it's a lot more grounded in reality and practicality. I got really tired of my AP classes in high school being watered down. It should only be those who have a real interest in education. People who just want to work should have the ability to do so.
_________________ Now that god no longer exists, the desire for another world still remains.
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:54 pm Posts: 12287 Location: Manguetown Gender: Male
Its impossible to be worst than the canadian one, holy shit, canadians dont know almost nothing about history , only political correct shit about native americans.
_________________ There's just no mercy in your eyes There ain't no time to set things right And I'm afraid I've lost the fight I'm just a painful reminder Another day you leave behind
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:54 pm Posts: 12287 Location: Manguetown Gender: Male
A couple of examples...
Some canadians believe that Canada is larger than Russia! Since when 10 million square km is larger than 17 million?
One of my teacher back there, belived that Islam came before christanism...She was just 600 and somethings years wrong.
ah, this teacher was jewish and she claimed that she studied religions of middle-east, what makes her affirmation even more lame
_________________ There's just no mercy in your eyes There ain't no time to set things right And I'm afraid I've lost the fight I'm just a painful reminder Another day you leave behind
I definitely agree with you, Koser. I think we should adopt the German school system, as it's a lot more grounded in reality and practicality. I got really tired of my AP classes in high school being watered down. It should only be those who have a real interest in education. People who just want to work should have the ability to do so.
I have a few college friends who are from European countries and after years of debate, I have come to really appreciate the way their school system works. Part of the reason I am working so hard to get a system abroad.
Little Wing wrote:
This sounds like a job for! *dun dun dun* SCHOOL VOUCHERS!
If done correctly I am not entirely opposed to that system.
1. Schools are incapable of requiring more from students than society is prepared to expect. In many places, a failing student must be passed on to the next grade if the parents request it. Last year 11 students failed my class, and all of them were passed on by their parents...mostly, for fears of social isolation or stigma. Two years before that, a parent tried to get me fired because her son had a D. If you wanted schools to go as deep as that, it would require a lot sterner approach from society in general (which is very forgiving and soft on teens) and parents especially.
I reassert this issue as a point of interest, because it was not developed further or debated and because I do believe that one of the utmost damaging forces on the public education system is the swiftly plummeting expectations society has for its adolescents.
Quote:
2. The brain is still in developmental stages on into the early 20's, so for most people that degree of abstract thinking is impossible at that age. For some, it will always be. Maybe offering more philosophy optional courses would be the route to go. But those will cost money, and these days the only way you'll get it budgeted is to make it an AP course...in which case every parent in town will try to stuff their unprepared kid into it.
Little Wing might be right on this one...school vouchers would solve a lot of budgeting problems. I've been thinking a lot about the potential....potential mind you...for vouchers to result not only in a lack of control over the education system on the part of moron congressmen and women, but in a larger amount of control on the part of teachers.
Some canadians believe that Canada is larger than Russia! Since when 10 million square km is larger than 17 million?
One of my teacher back there, belived that Islam came before christanism...She was just 600 and somethings years wrong.
ah, this teacher was jewish and she claimed that she studied religions of middle-east, what makes her affirmation even more lame
this has NOTHING to do with the canadian school system, you schmuck. I could easily say ¨i knew an american who thought that Africa was a country¨ and therefore the I paint the entire US school system as crap.
Oh, and by the way, it is called Christianity, not Christianism. And you need to brush up on your grammar and spelling... just because you sucked shit at school does not mean the entire school system sucks.
Some canadians believe that Canada is larger than Russia! Since when 10 million square km is larger than 17 million?
One of my teacher back there, belived that Islam came before christanism...She was just 600 and somethings years wrong.
ah, this teacher was jewish and she claimed that she studied religions of middle-east, what makes her affirmation even more lame
this has NOTHING to do with the canadian school system, you schmuck. I could easily say ¨i knew an american who thought that Africa was a country¨ and therefore the I paint the entire US school system as crap.
Oh, and by the way, it is called Christianity, not Christianism. And you need to brush up on your grammar and spelling... just because you sucked shit at school does not mean the entire school system sucks.
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 11:54 pm Posts: 12287 Location: Manguetown Gender: Male
corduroy11 wrote:
Human Bass wrote:
A couple of examples...
Some canadians believe that Canada is larger than Russia! Since when 10 million square km is larger than 17 million?
One of my teacher back there, belived that Islam came before christanism...She was just 600 and somethings years wrong.
ah, this teacher was jewish and she claimed that she studied religions of middle-east, what makes her affirmation even more lame
this has NOTHING to do with the canadian school system, you schmuck. I could easily say ¨i knew an american who thought that Africa was a country¨ and therefore the I paint the entire US school system as crap.
Oh, and by the way, it is called Christianity, not Christianism. And you need to brush up on your grammar and spelling... just because you sucked shit at school does not mean the entire school system sucks.
oh sorry, but im pretty sure that your portuguese is still much worse than my english. And im pretty sure that Canada public schools are weak when it comes to geography and history. I've seen a lot of examples of that and im sure that GEG who is a canadian, agrees with me about history being very weak in canadian schools.
_________________ There's just no mercy in your eyes There ain't no time to set things right And I'm afraid I've lost the fight I'm just a painful reminder Another day you leave behind
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