Alright, this kind of comes from a movie idea I've been messing around with. This might be more suitable for GD, but I wanted a serious discussion.

Let's say a new-born baby is completely isolated from the rest of the world. The person lives in an inescapable room with no windows and no possible exposure to the outside world. When the person needs to be fed, cleaned or medicated, they are gassed so that they never see another human being. Keep in mind...this is all hypothetical.

If a child had to live like this for 12 years and he was finally unleashed to the world, do you think he/she would have a general sense of right and wrong?

Suppose the person is released and they are out on their own for about a month after 12 years of isolation. If someone instructs the person to stab someone or something like that, do you think they would understand that there is generally something wrong with what they are doing, or do you think he/she wouldn't be the least bit hesitant?

That's interesting. I think that to some degree it must be inspired by social behaviors, because cases of children raised in adverse conditions (in the wild, or strapped to a chair for 10 years), behaviors seem solely inspired by their conditions and must therefore be an inspiration for their notion of right and wrong...or, say, good and bad.

ever have to study and Socrates?

Familiar with the 'living in a cave your whole life and seeing only shadows' argument he makes?

I barely remember it anymore, but I think it's related somehow.

anyone?

This is not Socrate. It is Plato.

The kid might be able to empathize with other people, and thus, not want to hurt them.

But that would at least require him to understand that other people are like him. I bet humans figure that out pretty fast.

dammit!

I've read 3 cases about people who were raised by animals and when they were found it was quite impossible to socialize them.

i would disagree

how is a kid supposed to know right from wrong? if he is taught to stab someone, he may assume this is a good thing. and he will equate to being happy and stabbing someone

will this attitude change if someone tells him after the tenth time he has done this that it is indeed bad? who knows, only the shadow

I don't think he would know "right and wrong." But he would know what pain is, and if he empathizes with other people, he wouldn't want to cause them pain.

What I don't know, is if the kid can empathize given that he's never seen another living being. He may not even understand the concept of living beings.

You ever read Ender's Game? There's an alien race that attacked humans 3 times in the book until they were able to figure out that humans had feelings, just like they did. You'd really like that book, by the way. Excellent sci-fi.

how would he know what pain is? if hes in a room with no windows and no nothing, how would he know pain? would he even know emotional pain since he has nothing to compare it to?

I assumed he had toys or played (creating opportunities for injury).

I'm certain the kid would fall at some point in his life. Plus, he would get ill too.

ok, cause this part confused me

I believe he would be a rather selfish individual. Having only known himself and having no concept of "the world" beyond himself, it's very likely that the outside world would be considered only an illusion or a playground to this person. I believe he would be impressed and willing to experience the outside world, but knowin no concepts such as "murder" or "assault", he might find these activities pleasing insomuch as they stimulate his experience. Knowing only himself, I believe he would be most likely incapable of empathy, as empathy requires the "knowing" of others. He may even reject the outside world as a whole, not wishing to acknowledge that the world does not exist solely for him. Just some thoughts.

I thought about this, and I'm changing my answer. I don't think the kid is going to have any concept of right and wrong, not because humans can't figure out right and wrong for themselves, but because we cannot do it in the absence of other human beings. Without other people around there is no right and wrong. You can only learn that by interacting with other people. So this kid may eventually figure out right and wrong, but the first time someone tells him to stab someone, he has no idea what will happen and can't make a moral judgement based solely on the command.

There are fundamental feelings, genetic memory, that would give some feelings of right and wrong. For example, baby's faces elicit specific emotional responces (designed to protect them from being killed/eaten from people) and even an isolate child would experience that same responce. The isolated child may sense things as "right" or "wrong", for all us have different definitions of these things, the child would undoubtedly sense certain fight or flight reactions.

Sounds like that movie blast from the Past. but he had a family there so the isolation wasnt as severe.

Oxana Malaya, raised by dogs, had acquired her social behavior from dogs. Therefore, her sense of right and wrong was based on canine socialization, and it took years for specialists to undo this. I still suspect that the majority of moral judgement is inspired by social behaviors and teachings.

I suppose the case of 'Genie' would be one to look at, but I prefer not to because it makes my stomach hurt.

well shiver me timbers, me and B agreed

if the kid had never seen another human, the first time a person appears while he is conscious, he will not know know what "it" is and be scared to death.

if he is "told" to stab another person, well, how is that idea to be communicated? this isolated child has never seen gestures, heard voices, seen eyes. i'm not even sure if this isolated child would be able to mimic another person, at least not right away.

depending on isolated boy's IQ, he may have already created a language for himself, very likely in picture form. he may have deduced a point to his existence, and since it includes only his 4 walls and periods of unconsciousness, who knows what it would be and how difficult it would be to socialize him.

if after his period of isolation is done (his entire childhood?) he is given just enough human contact to then understand that there are other beings like him, and he is given a knife and told to stab person X, i think isolated boy would be more likely to stab his captor: humans have an inate dislike for captivity....but they also grow to need it if left in captivity for too long.

but right and wrong? even in his limited existence, i think he'd know about pain, and i think he'd know that blood sometimes comes when there is pain. and i think if he were given an order to stab someone and he did it then saw blood, which in his mind = pain, he may not be able to do it again. he may think the blood is his own, having never seens anyone else with blood and think that by stabbing another being he is hurting himself.

but really, i think he'd be too scared of other people and animals and cars and buildings and EVERYTHING to be useful as an assination tool. i think he'd cling to his bars and his reality for as long as he could. it would take decades of gentle psychiatric help to get him to accept that other people ar real, and that he does not need to live in a cage.