http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/4525412.stm

Pretty shocking statistics

And we wonder why we get terrorist attacks across the West!

God, the number of civilians killed just makes me want to

This is a major reason why no one should EVER be eager to go to war.

Has anyone ever done a breakdown of how many civilian casualties are a result of attacks by the insurgency vs. a direct result of US military action?

Either way, they were both ultimately spurned by the decision to go to war in the first place.

Can we get numbers of how many Iraqis are actually still alive in these regions?

True, but I still think it's an important distinction.

Clearly, the administration miscalculated in it's assumption that Iraqis would be willing and able to peacefully assemble a new government in the wake of Hussein's fall. But that miscalculation, which has resulted in extremists continuing to slaughter civilians in a grasp for power, isn't imo the same as civilian deaths caused by direct US military action.

All of it is utterly tragic. I'm just stating that there's a difference. It's not as if we're directing the extremists to kill people with roadside bombs.

I honestly don't know how anybody can still defend this war.

Of course it's not the same, and you're free to use the distinction to hold the majority of the US troops in a higher regard. But both types of killings could have been avoided. I also worry that we're far from the end of violence in that country, and while most (if not all?) of that violence will not be committed by the US, the policymakers are still responsible for opening Pandora's Box.

Every report I read on this seems to state a completely different number.

Nevertheless, it's more than obvious this war is far from over, and will continue for several years/decades whether the US ever decides to pull out or not.

One of the main arguments from the pro-war camp was that the country was far worse off under Sadam's regime. I think it's pretty safe to say that we can disregard that completely. This war has spawned total chaos, and peace has become an obscure concept.

Are the insurgents technically police or civilians?

I'm not defending the war, I'm just thinking this might be a bit skewed if the insurgents are listed as civilians.

Higher or lower?



I'd say it was damned if you do, damned if you don't given either Saddam or what we have now. Too bad the world didn't attempt to think of a third way.

Does anyone still believe the Iraqis are capable of democracy? Voting sure, but actual democracy? I gave them the benefit of the doubt, but I don't think so anymore.

In most studies I've seen, they are not counted as civilians. The US military or Iraqi police process those dead, and these numbers, it appears, are the records from the morgues that treat the civilians. In any case, these are only the RECORDED dead. Be sure there have been MANY more actually killed, perhaps close to twice this number. The dead from the early days of the war and after the fall of Saddam were likely not counted as well since there was virtually no civilian bureaucracy to keep such records.