***warning graphic/sensitve images***

I think if you support something you outta look it in the face and at least rethink if only for a moment.

http://fromisraeltolebanon.info/

War is awful.

It's worse when combatants base themselves and their weapons in densely populated civilian areas.

Imagine how many Israeli children would be killed and maimed if they kept their armaments in the basements of apartment complexes.

Oh yeah, it wouldn't really make a difference, since Hezbollah targets the apartment complexes whether there are military targets there or not.

very graphic

because of the wars that have been going on in my lifetime, especially the iraq war and now this israel/lebannon war, i see war movies in a completely different way.

i previously enjoyed movies like saving private ryan, platoon, patriot...but now i just wince when i see them and think about the people who are dying right now for something i can't quite wrap my brain around.

how is it that our society can try to convince its individual citizens that violence is not the way to settle personal disputes while our collective society is settling a dispute with another society with bombs and tanks?

i did not watch the clip because i have no desire to see people blown up, dying, bleeding, losing limbs, etc. i harbour no illusions about what is going on in the middle east and i just wish it would all stop.

Your point being?

Patton is still pretty fucking cool

that is one war movie i could never quite enjoy. probably because my step-asshole forced me to watch it when i was 9 years old.

with each passing day i see humanity sinking deeper into the quick sand of war, and i can't think of anything short of complete anihilation of all races and countries that can stop the sinking.

like jeff says: if it takes the end of the world to save it, so be it.

The things we do to each other are horrific.

As much as I've been inclined to support Israel the last 5 years, I'm having trouble understanding this latest "response". What are they accomplishing? Even moderate Arabs will hate them now.

Imagine how powerful a statement it would have been if Israel had done nothing militarily, everyone the world over would have seen what pointless provocation the kidnappings were/are. There's a part of me that believes Israel would have chosen this path if Sharon were still in charge. Olmert, his political life on the line, obviously felt that he had no choice. I think it's probably a decision he'll live to regret.

Either Israel stays in south Lebanon and attempts to root out Hezbollah and in the process levels the country(if they haven't already http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13980187/) or
they bow to political pressure and slink back to Israel, accomplishing nothing.
In other words, I think they've already blew it.

That pictures of maimed and killed children, which is basically what is on this link, tell only part of the story.

It would be really nice if one group fo men would line up on a battlefield in red uniforms, and the other group on the side of the field in blue uniforms and fight it out without getting non-combatants in the middle of it like they did in the 18th century in Europe, but that's not the way people play anymore. The weapons are bigger and more destructive, and some parties choose as a basic strategy to hide amongst the civilian population.

The fact that their leaders (correctly) see images like these as an ASSET to their cause and a detriment to their opponent's cause speaks volumes.

Here's an interesting question. Let's say that Hezbollah primarily targetted MILITARY targets (I know, but bear with me on this one), and that the Israelis moved their military targets into heavily populated civilian areas to try to escape the attacks (stop laughing, I'm getting to my point here). HOW DO YOU THINK THE ISRAELI PEOPLE WOULD REACT TO THIS?

They would react the same way that the American people, or Europeans, or the people of any other civilized place on earth would react. They would say, "Get the fuck out of here! Can't you see you're unneccesarily endangering civilians?"

Or think about it this way. Imagine you live in a large American city, and your neighborhood is under the thumb the Mafia, or some other large organized crime syndicate. Anyone in your neighborhood who speaks out against the mobsters ends up dead or otherwise silenced. The local authorities are completely in bed with them, to the point that if you went to them for help, you'd probably be turned over to them. The Mafia operates with impugnity, and the local authorities are simply puppets of the mob, or at the very least powerless against them.

Enter the FBI. They've decided, for reasons of national security, that they need to clean up your neighborhood. Not only are they not receiving cooperation from the local cops, but they are receiving active resistence. There is a raid on the neighborhood by overwhelming federal forces. Several innocent people are killed, many homes and businesses are damaged or destroyed.

Who do you blame for the destruction and death? The FBI? The local government? The Mafia?

Stuff to consider while looking at pictures of dead children...

I'm not sure about this response either, but I think I know what would have happened if Israel had done nothing militarily. There would be three dead and/or tortured soldiers, and not a single mind in the world would be changed about the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Those who support Israel would be outraged, and those who support the Palestinians would not have their opinions about Hamas and Hezbollah changed.

And then it would happen again next month.

The point of posting these images is not to show one is more wicked than the other. The point is show the effects of war and the need to a more unified effort to stop it. Some people can support something and never actually know the horror it involves. This is war and it has to be stopped not justifed. Of course, they want these images to be shown for sympathy of their own side, and yes, it is sick that they want this to happen to demonize the otherside. Can we change their strategy? No. But the fact still remains that this is what happens in war...and can we live with that? Is it necessary? If this kinda shit is gonna happen it better be for a damn good reason. Fuck that, this shit should never happen.

I agree with you. Let's agree to never kill other people, for any reason.

Now, what should we do about those 6 billion other people on earth, the vast majority of whom are not as enlightened as you and me?

*EDIT*

I apologize for sounding condescending. War is unnecessary, and if everyone on earth realized this, there would be no war. When you actually care enough to deeply think about many of the conflicts of the world and why they exist, you WILL ultimately come to the conclusion that there is a peaceful way to resolve ANY conflict. When you as an individual come to this realization, it is a powerful revelation, and it makes you think that you can really make a difference in the world if you can just spread the word and teh ideas.

Of course, you have to operate under the assumption that people are basically good and reasonable, and seeking to make the world a better place. But they're not. People suck. They're selfish, and stupid. They are emotional and prejudiced, and they are religious and superstitious. They do not generally have a desire to make the world a better place, at least not for everyone, and the VAST majority of humanity has too myopic a view of the world to be able to see the consequences of their actions beyond their own neighborhood anyway.

I once thought like you do. Now I try to see the best in the bad rather than try to see the ideal. Ideals are masturbatory, and they are the CAUSE of this current conflict in the Middle East as well. People with IDEALS, who are unable to just come down off their high horses and deal with the best possible outcome of a BAD situation.

Just because some ideals are impossible or counter productive doesn't mean that every ideal, such as living on this earth as one, aren't worth working towards. People are selfish and stupid because that is what they are breed to be. That can change, I will always believe. Just the internet alone is becoming a great tool in spreading awareness or at least a better view of both sides. I believe if most people knew the whole truth in every situation we would start seeing real changes in attitudes. I don't think people are born evil, bad, or uncaring. I think the powers that be need them this way and so it is. All of this can be changed with enough effort. I think you underestimate humanity. If it wasn't for our efforts already, the world would be in much worse shape.

Keep fighting the good fight.

And you make fun of me for liking animals more than people

On the war - I feel like we're all watching the beginning of WWIII and it isn't going to stop until most of us are dead. Sad.

You only like animals better because they are physically incapable of saying stupid things, which we humans suffer as a chronic condition.

Because, unfortunately, that is not a posture that Israel can afford to take. It cannot knowingly sacrafice its people to the hand of terrorists, because that would undoubtedly encourage further kidnapping and attacks. At many times in history, intafada after intifada, Israel has shown withstraint until attacks hit a certain breaking point in intensity. Why wait? Give up a thousand prisoners for one? An ever-present menace lies just to the north of their border and was responsible for something pretty awful.

The easiest solution to me was clear from the outset. All the Lebanese government would have had to do was immediately seek out the kidnapped soldier's and go after Hezbollah. That's it. If Lebanon policed itself, or if Hamas had policed the Gaza strip and kept terrorist groups at the very least marginalized, neither of these incursions would have taken place. Unfortunately, the government of Lebanon, instead of siding with Israel, has decided to side with the faction that is ultimately responsible for the surge in violence. They have chosen to side with a terrorist organization.

To say that it was Israel's job to do nothing to make a political statement while sacraficing their own people... Never.

PunkDavid, Hezbollah does not have targeted missiles (or at least, a lot), F-16s, Blackhawks, etc like the Israelis. They have ROCKETS. You can't precisely aim rockets. You try, and then you just hope they land where you want them to. Hezbollah does not have the technology to precisely hit military targets. So, I don't know that it is fair to say that Hezbollah is only targeting civilians. If they could precisely target Israeli military positions, I would have to believe they would. And I realize terrorists organizations, by nature, are not worried about killing innocent civilians. But I think your reasoning in this case is not applicable. Here, hezbollah wants to inflict major damage on the army first and foremost, right?

Also, keep in mind that Israel is the one saying that the reason there are so many civilian casualties in lebanon is because hezbollah hides behind civilians. From what I have seen on the news, from the reporters who have gone into the bombed-out areas (like the mosque under construction), there is often no evidence of any sort of military stache, presence, NOTHING. And now, Israel is saying that they must invade b/c all the weapons and terrorists are in caves...plus, the lebanese civilians deny this.

All I am saying is, if you believe Israel that they are only targeting hezbollah positions, then you have to also consider that what the government of lebanon (and it's people) are saying might also be true.

The situation is not good right now but we had worse ones during History like the Middle Age.