Turkish official compares pope to Hitler
Politician joins outcry across Muslim world over pontiff's comments in Islam
ANKARA, Turkey - Turkey’s ruling Islamic-rooted party joined a wave of criticism of Pope Benedict XVI on Friday, accusing him of trying to revive the spirit of the Crusades with remarks he made about the Muslim faith.
Muslim leaders elsewhere in the world also expressed dismay, with Pakistan’s Foreign Ministry summoning the Vatican’s ambassador to express regret over the remarks, and Parliament passing a resolution condemning the comments.
The pope’s words were “deeply disturbing for Muslims all over the world, and had caused great hurt and anguish,†the ministry said in a statement.
The Vatican’s envoy “regretted the hurt caused to Muslims and said that the media had totally misconstrued certain historical quotes that the Pope used in his lecture,†the statement said.
Benedict quoted from a book recounting a conversation between 14th century Byzantine Christian Emperor Manuel Paleologos II and a Persian scholar on the truths of Christianity and Islam.
“The emperor comes to speak about the issue of jihad, holy war,†the pope said. “He said, I quote, ’Show me just what Mohammed brought that was new, and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached.â€'
Benedict did not explicitly agree with the statement nor repudiate it.
'Mentality of the Crusades'
Salih Kapusuz, a deputy leader of Turkish Prime Minister Recep Tayyip Erdogan’s party, said Benedict’s remarks were either “the result of pitiful ignorance†about Islam and its prophet, or a deliberate distortion.
The comments raised tensions ahead of his planned visit to Turkey in November — his first pilgrimage to a Muslim country.
“He has a dark mentality that comes from the darkness of the Middle Ages. He is a poor thing that has not benefited from the spirit of reform in the Christian world,†Kapusuz was quoted as saying by the state-owned Anatolia news agency. “It looks like an effort to revive the mentality of the Crusades.â€
“Benedict, the author of such unfortunate and insolent remarks, is going down in history for his words,†he said. “He is going down in history in the same category as leaders such as (Adolf) Hitler and (Benito) Mussolini.â€
Turkey’s staunchly secular opposition party also demanded that Benedict apologize to Muslims before his visit to Turkey.
“The pope has thrown gasoline onto the fire ... in a world where the risk of a clash between religions is high,†said Haluk Koc, deputy head of the Republican People’s Party, as a small group of protesters left a black wreath in front of the Vatican’s embassy in Ankara.
On Thursday, Turkey’s top Islamic cleric, Ali Bardakoglu, asked Benedict to apologize for the remarks and unleashed a string of accusations against Christianity.
In Beirut, Lebanon’s most senior Shiite Muslim cleric denounced the remarks Friday and demanded the pope personally apologize for insulting Islam.
“We do not accept the apology through Vatican channels ... and ask him (Benedict) to offer a personal apology — not through his officials — to Muslims for this false reading (of Islam),†Grand Ayatollah Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah told worshippers in his Friday prayers sermon.
Vatican: Pope did not mean to offend Muslims
After Benedict returned to Italy on Thursday, Vatican spokesman the Rev. Federico Lombardi said, “It certainly wasn’t the intention of the pope to carry out a deep examination of jihad (holy war) and on Muslim thought on it, much less to offend the sensibility of Muslim believers.â€
Lombardi insisted the pope respects Islam. Benedict wants to “cultivate an attitude of respect and dialogue toward the other religions and cultures, obviously also toward Islam,†he said.
In a significant development Friday, the pope appointed Archbishop Dominique Mamberti, a French prelate with experience in the Muslim world, as the Vatican’s new foreign minister.
But anger still swept across the Muslim world, with Pakistan’s parliament unanimously adopting a resolution condemning the pope for making what it called “derogatory†comments about Islam, and seeking an apology from him.
“Anyone who describes Islam as a religion as intolerant encourages violence,†Foreign Ministry spokeswoman Tasnim Aslam said.
“What he has done is that he has quoted very offensive remarks by some emperor hundreds of years ago,†she added. “It is not helpful (because) we have been trying to bridge the gap, calling for dialogue and understanding between religions.â€
Aslam said Muslims had a long history of tolerance, adding that when the Catholic kingdom of Spain expelled its Jewish population in 1492 they were welcomed by Muslim nations such as the Turkish Ottoman Empire.
Worldwide protests
Indonesia, which has more Muslims than any other in the world, had no immediate response to the pope’s comments, but religious groups were quick to protest, condemning the words as insensitive and damaging.
“A respected religious leader like the pope should not say such things, especially as nations across the globe are struggling to find ways to bridge differences between faiths and build understanding,†said Ma’ruf Amin, a member of Indonesia Council of Clerics, the country’s highest Islamic body.
“Such words hurt Muslims all over the world,†he said.
The head of Britain’s largest Muslim body said it was disturbed by the pope’s use of a 14th century passage. The Muslim Council, which represents 400 groups in Britain, said the emperor’s views were “ill-informed and frankly bigoted.â€
“One would expect a religious leader such as the pope to act and speak with responsibility and repudiate the Byzantine emperor’s views in the interests of truth and harmonious relations between the followers of Islam and Catholicism,†said Muhammad Abdul Bari, the council’s secretary-general.
Elsewhere, Syria’s grand mufti, the country’s top Sunni Muslim religious authority, sent a letter to the pope saying he feared the comments would worsen interfaith relations.
In Cairo, Egypt, about 100 demonstrators gathered in an anti-Vatican protest outside the al-Azhar mosque, chanting “Oh Crusaders, oh cowards! Down with the pope!â€
Benedict, who has made the fight against growing secularism in Western society a theme of his pontificate, is expected to visit Turkey in late November. He was invited by the staunchly secularist Turkish President Ahmet Necdet Sezer, who said the invitation was part of an effort to strengthen dialogue between religions.
_________________ No matter how dark the storm gets overhead They say someone's watching from the calm at the edge What about us when we're down here in it? We gotta watch our backs
_________________ No matter how dark the storm gets overhead They say someone's watching from the calm at the edge What about us when we're down here in it? We gotta watch our backs
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:47 am Posts: 46000 Location: Reasonville
Gimme Some Skin wrote:
It basically looks like he just quoted some 14th century emporer, not necessarily agreeing with what he said.
I don't see the big deal. I'd really like to read what the speech was in context to.
like tensions aren't already high between christians and muslims; the last thing the pope needs to do is start referring to the holy war.
i think muslims are overreacting in calling him hitler, but they have a point in being extremely upset.
_________________ No matter how dark the storm gets overhead They say someone's watching from the calm at the edge What about us when we're down here in it? We gotta watch our backs
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:29 pm Posts: 6217 Location: Evil Bunny Land
corduroy_blazer wrote:
Gimme Some Skin wrote:
It basically looks like he just quoted some 14th century emporer, not necessarily agreeing with what he said.
I don't see the big deal. I'd really like to read what the speech was in context to.
like tensions aren't already high between christians and muslims; the last thing the pope needs to do is start referring to the holy war.
i think muslims are overreacting in calling him hitler, but they have a point in being extremely upset.
Why? Because he quoted someone who they don't agree with? Unless you know what his speech was about and what he was specifically referring to, there is no way you can say that. So he's not allowed to mention the crusades in any context anymore?
_________________ “Some things have got to be believed to be seen.”
- Ralph Hodgson
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:47 am Posts: 46000 Location: Reasonville
Gimme Some Skin wrote:
corduroy_blazer wrote:
Gimme Some Skin wrote:
It basically looks like he just quoted some 14th century emporer, not necessarily agreeing with what he said.
I don't see the big deal. I'd really like to read what the speech was in context to.
like tensions aren't already high between christians and muslims; the last thing the pope needs to do is start referring to the holy war.
i think muslims are overreacting in calling him hitler, but they have a point in being extremely upset.
Why? Because he quoted someone who they don't agree with? Unless you know what his speech was about and what he was specifically referring to, there is no way you can say that. So he's not allowed to mention the crusades in any context anymore?
i've read his speech was somewhat of an examination of the holy war from the muslim side, something a pope probably shouldn't be doing if he's basing his time at the vatican on uniting religions and decreasing secularism. especially if he's using quotes that show the muslims as intolerant.
_________________ No matter how dark the storm gets overhead They say someone's watching from the calm at the edge What about us when we're down here in it? We gotta watch our backs
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:29 pm Posts: 6217 Location: Evil Bunny Land
corduroy_blazer wrote:
Gimme Some Skin wrote:
corduroy_blazer wrote:
Gimme Some Skin wrote:
It basically looks like he just quoted some 14th century emporer, not necessarily agreeing with what he said.
I don't see the big deal. I'd really like to read what the speech was in context to.
like tensions aren't already high between christians and muslims; the last thing the pope needs to do is start referring to the holy war.
i think muslims are overreacting in calling him hitler, but they have a point in being extremely upset.
Why? Because he quoted someone who they don't agree with? Unless you know what his speech was about and what he was specifically referring to, there is no way you can say that. So he's not allowed to mention the crusades in any context anymore?
i've read his speech was somewhat of an examination of the holy war from the muslim side, something a pope probably shouldn't be doing if he's basing his time at the vatican on uniting religions and decreasing secularism. especially if he's using quotes that show the muslims as intolerant.
I don't see how you can have an honest discussion about anything if you are censoring what you can and can't talk about. It would be one thing if he was publicly agreeing with the Emporer that he was quoting. It's something totally different if he is quoting the guy for the sake of discussion.
_________________ “Some things have got to be believed to be seen.”
- Ralph Hodgson
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:47 am Posts: 46000 Location: Reasonville
Gimme Some Skin wrote:
corduroy_blazer wrote:
Gimme Some Skin wrote:
corduroy_blazer wrote:
Gimme Some Skin wrote:
It basically looks like he just quoted some 14th century emporer, not necessarily agreeing with what he said.
I don't see the big deal. I'd really like to read what the speech was in context to.
like tensions aren't already high between christians and muslims; the last thing the pope needs to do is start referring to the holy war.
i think muslims are overreacting in calling him hitler, but they have a point in being extremely upset.
Why? Because he quoted someone who they don't agree with? Unless you know what his speech was about and what he was specifically referring to, there is no way you can say that. So he's not allowed to mention the crusades in any context anymore?
i've read his speech was somewhat of an examination of the holy war from the muslim side, something a pope probably shouldn't be doing if he's basing his time at the vatican on uniting religions and decreasing secularism. especially if he's using quotes that show the muslims as intolerant.
I don't see how you can have an honest discussion about anything if you are censoring what you can and can't talk about. It would be one thing if he was publicly agreeing with the Emporer that he was quoting. It's something totally different if he is quoting the guy for the sake of discussion.
i don't think you understand what the pope exactly did.
to muslims, the crusades aren't these glorious holy wars. they were invaded by barbarian hordes intent on changing their beliefs or killing them.
for the pope to use a quote saying the muslims are intolerant just before he was the speak in a muslim country...yeesh man. i can't even compare it to anything else.
_________________ No matter how dark the storm gets overhead They say someone's watching from the calm at the edge What about us when we're down here in it? We gotta watch our backs
i don't think you understand what the pope exactly did.
to muslims, the crusades aren't these glorious holy wars. they were invaded by barbarian hordes intent on changing their beliefs or killing them.
for the pope to use a quote saying the muslims are intolerant just before he was the speak in a muslim country...yeesh man. i can't even compare it to anything else.
Good thing Muslims are so tolerant then or they would be OUTRAGED!
Joined: Fri Jan 14, 2005 5:55 am Posts: 4213 Location: Austin TX Gender: Male
broken iris wrote:
corduroy_blazer wrote:
i don't think you understand what the pope exactly did.
to muslims, the crusades aren't these glorious holy wars. they were invaded by barbarian hordes intent on changing their beliefs or killing them.
for the pope to use a quote saying the muslims are intolerant just before he was the speak in a muslim country...yeesh man. i can't even compare it to anything else.
Good thing Muslims are so tolerant then or they would be OUTRAGED!
yeah - and then they might like - fire bomb some embassies and shit.
_________________ Pour the sun upon the ground stand to throw a shadow watch it grow into a night and fill the spinnin' sky
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:47 am Posts: 46000 Location: Reasonville
sleightofhandpj wrote:
So he called a spade a spade.
Funny how a religion of hate and violence can get upset about someone NOT agreeing with THEM.
Hypocritical bastards.
to say muslims faiths are based on hate and violence is a little hypocritical when we're talking about the crusades.
_________________ No matter how dark the storm gets overhead They say someone's watching from the calm at the edge What about us when we're down here in it? We gotta watch our backs
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:29 pm Posts: 6217 Location: Evil Bunny Land
corduroy_blazer wrote:
Gimme Some Skin wrote:
corduroy_blazer wrote:
Gimme Some Skin wrote:
corduroy_blazer wrote:
Gimme Some Skin wrote:
It basically looks like he just quoted some 14th century emporer, not necessarily agreeing with what he said.
I don't see the big deal. I'd really like to read what the speech was in context to.
like tensions aren't already high between christians and muslims; the last thing the pope needs to do is start referring to the holy war.
i think muslims are overreacting in calling him hitler, but they have a point in being extremely upset.
Why? Because he quoted someone who they don't agree with? Unless you know what his speech was about and what he was specifically referring to, there is no way you can say that. So he's not allowed to mention the crusades in any context anymore?
i've read his speech was somewhat of an examination of the holy war from the muslim side, something a pope probably shouldn't be doing if he's basing his time at the vatican on uniting religions and decreasing secularism. especially if he's using quotes that show the muslims as intolerant.
I don't see how you can have an honest discussion about anything if you are censoring what you can and can't talk about. It would be one thing if he was publicly agreeing with the Emporer that he was quoting. It's something totally different if he is quoting the guy for the sake of discussion.
i don't think you understand what the pope exactly did.
to muslims, the crusades aren't these glorious holy wars. they were invaded by barbarian hordes intent on changing their beliefs or killing them.
for the pope to use a quote saying the muslims are intolerant just before he was the speak in a muslim country...yeesh man. i can't even compare it to anything else.
No, I do understand what he did. I've read it now.
He should have denounced the emporers position as soon as he said it, instead of just going on with his speech. But he was speaking as a scholor at a college he used to teach at, not as the Pope. It was poor judgement. But was it malicious toward Islam? Absolutely not. Even the Pope's harshest critics all agree that it was not meant in that context nor was he advocating anything of the sort about current day Islam.
The only ones that founds this offensive are Muslims. The same people that rioted over a cartoon.
_________________ “Some things have got to be believed to be seen.”
- Ralph Hodgson
The only ones that founds this offensive are Muslims. The same people that rioted over a cartoon.
They would probably be offended at this, too. Not that it's a bad thing, of course. Personally, I don't view something as wrong simply because people are offended by it, especially Muslims, who seem to be extraordinarily sensitive in regards to such matter. Then again, they probably are correct to be sensitive when it comes from the head of the Catholic Church.
Joined: Mon Oct 18, 2004 2:29 pm Posts: 6217 Location: Evil Bunny Land
Peter Van Wieren wrote:
Gimme Some Skin wrote:
The only ones that founds this offensive are Muslims. The same people that rioted over a cartoon.
They would probably be offended at this, too. Not that it's a bad thing, of course. Personally, I don't view something as wrong simply because people are offended by it, especially Muslims, who seem to be extraordinarily sensitive in regards to such matter. Then again, they probably are correct to be sensitive when it comes from the head of the Catholic Church.
So you really think that they are justified in being 'sensitive' because the head of the Catholic Church (not acting as head of the Catholic Church at the time) quoted a 14th century emporer who had an unfavorable view of Islam? Even though he was in no way condoning said quote?
That just seems a little over-sensitive to me. It was obviously not a smart thing for Ratzinger to say, but give me a break. It's not like he was stating it as doctine.
_________________ “Some things have got to be believed to be seen.”
- Ralph Hodgson
The only ones that founds this offensive are Muslims. The same people that rioted over a cartoon.
They would probably be offended at this, too. Not that it's a bad thing, of course. Personally, I don't view something as wrong simply because people are offended by it, especially Muslims, who seem to be extraordinarily sensitive in regards to such matter. Then again, they probably are correct to be sensitive when it comes from the head of the Catholic Church.
So you really think that they are justified in being 'sensitive' because the head of the Catholic Church (not acting as head of the Catholic Church at the time) quoted a 14th century emporer who had an unfavorable view of Islam? Even though he was in no way condoning said quote?
That just seems a little over-sensitive to me. It was obviously not a smart thing for Ratzinger to say, but give me a break. It's not like he was stating it as doctine.
I didn't know the Pope got off days from being God's Messenger Boy?
If there's no reason for Muslims to be sensitive, why was it not a smart thing to say?
Joined: Thu Dec 16, 2004 1:54 am Posts: 7189 Location: CA
If what I heard from my parents is correct, what Mr. Pope man wants to do is discuss the nature of God, in regards to holy war and whatnot. I can't help but notice that the majority of that article is quoting other people responding to what the Pope said, but no so much the context in which he said it.
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 4:01 am Posts: 19477 Location: Brooklyn NY
Big deal, if Islam can't take criticism then nobody should take it seriously
_________________
LittleWing sometime in July 2007 wrote:
Unfortunately, it's so elementary, and the big time investors behind the drive in the stock market aren't so stupid. This isn't the false economy of 2000.
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