it was a horrid, horrible thing. that we can all agree on.

but, did out of something so bad, something good happen?

my point here is that many, many african-americans were brought to america for slavery. without slavery, may they have not come over in such a mass amount? and in what way would that have affected society?

I'm not even gonna touch this one

So basically what you are asking is, was it worth it? If so i don't think i'm in the position to answer that question.

no.

i don't think you can look at anything this horrible and say 'was it worth it?' and i'm not getting at that anyway.

what i'm saying is that yes, something awful happened. but in the process, did it enrich our society 200 years down the line?

i hope this thread doesn't come off wrong. i'm not trying to condone slavery whatsoever. and i'm not saying it was good slavery happened because of the results.

i'm saying it did happen, and we can't control that. but from something atrocious happening, down the line, did something positive come of it? would we have the amount of diversity we currently have?

It's hard to say really. I mean if there were no black people in the US, there would be a whole lot less racism. I think that eventualy people would have made it over to the US anyways, but probably not in the masses they arrived through slavery. This is going to sound awful but check the stats, the only thing i can think of that it has added to US culture is in sports. I don't mean that as a degrading thing what so ever, but other than that we are very much alike as humans.

i think there's an argument to be made that with no/less black people in the u.s., there'd be more racism. or it would have taken longer for equality to happen.

I wouldn't dismiss CB's argument, but I think it caused so much psychological damage on an entire race of people that there's really no benefit to be found in slavery.

It really, really, really is time for the black community of America to move on. They've made being mistreated by whites the priority in their politics far too often.

That's true too, where there are a lot of people from a certain race fighting for their rights equality might be accomplished sooner. Though if there were none to less, it's also possible equality would never be an issue since no one is fighting for their rights due to lack of back up support from your own race.



I agree to a certain extent. Though it has got to be hard to move on when you are still being frowned upon by a large amount of people. You can't really move on when the whites haven't moved on either.

It doesn't help much when the leaders or role models for blacks are people like Jackson and Sharpton. They're just divisive, brash leaders full of vitriol and unreasonable demands most of the time. Rappers and atheletes aren't much better.

Totally agree....I'm not sure why there is so much hatred towards Bill Cosby or Juan Williams' book either. I've listened to their critics but they don't make any sense....and what they are "preaching" isn't even based on race...it's common freakin sense.

Just because a race has a bad representation, doesn't mean the whole race being represented is in agreement. White people have Bush, is he representing the majority of white people?

I never said they were representatives, just role-models.

You're right, i guess that's the problem. the fact that a race still feels the desire to have a role model of its own race instead of just a role-model representing humankind.

You're right, i guess that's the problem. the fact that a race still feels the desire to have a role model of its own race instead of just a role-model representing humankind.[/quote]

Well it's how human beings identify. One way happens to be by the color of their skin - and usually if you grow up in a very undiverse environment you're limited to how you respond to the world. That applies to people of all races. Also like a lot of us here.

First off, CB let me assure you that I know where you are coming from in your questioning of this and don't find the questioning offensive. You are approaching a very touchy subject and attempting to do so in such a way that strips away all the emotional elements involved and just looking at it in a strictly empirical sense. Its a can of worms, but I'm going to throw a couple things in here. This is going to all come off over simplified and maybe a bit under informed, but its a start; I'm not a history professor.


In a nutshell, our country wouldn't exist without two things that are at the same time huge blemishes on our country's history; slavery and the slaughter of Native Americans; you can also throw in the Chinese who built our railroads and then were swiftly afforded 2nd class citizenship for arguements sake as well.. So it really boils down to an arguement of do the ends justify the means. Basically in the space of 150 yrs or so, our country became a power in the world, and in the space of 200 yrs became a super power. But there is a massive amount of blood on the hands of those who achieved this. And I would argue that such a greatly accelerated climb to international prominence doesn't come without its negatives.

Screw it, I'm just rambling now. It's a major question, but I think at its core the simple fact that blacks now have opportunities before them doesn't erase the fact that whites had at least a 100 yr head start on this soil and that many of the institutions that offer said opportunities were built on the backs of their enslaved ancestors.

I can with great certainty rebuff conoalias' statement "This is going to sound awful but check the stats, the only thing i can think of that it has added to US culture is in sports. "

First off, all the music you listen to has its roots at least partially, and more times than not completely, in black culture.

I can also point you to this http://inventors.about.com/library/inve ... s_mask.htm
I mostly am aware of Garret Morgan due to the fact that he was born in my home town. And even then, and I think this leads to a good point, the only recognition of Morgan that I recall hearing about was in a history lesson at my private Catholic elementary school. I have no idea if kids in the public elementary schools were getting any info about Morgan, but I do know that I don't recall any mention of him in my public Middle and High School history classes. And there is no Garret Morgan High School, no Garret Morgan Park (however there is a Garrard park; I wonder if this was whitey's back handed attempt at recognizing Morgan ), or Garret Morgan St. in my town as far as I know

The point I think this illustrates is that for the most part throughout our history, and working against the perceived disadvantage of their genetics, black people have achieved in all the same areas that all other races in America have, yet as a minority, their achievements are not held in the same historical perspective as those of their usually white contemporaries. To me, this is what I think of when black leaders speak of institutionalized racism. Its not that the academic and economic institutions of the U.S. have clan meetings every afternoon at 3:30, but a majority of them are rooted in white culture and community and hold those cultural and community standards above those of other cultures and communities.

Here are some other fast facts...

Elijah McCoy

Elijah McCoy (1843–1929) invented an oil-dripping cup for trains.

Fast Fact: Other inventors tried to copy McCoy's oil-dripping cup. But none of the other cups worked as well as his, so customers started asking for "the real McCoy." That's where the expression comes from.



Lewis Latimer

Lewis Latimer (1848–1928) invented an important part of the light bulb — the carbon filament.

Fast Fact: Latimer worked in the laboratories of both Thomas Edison and Alexander Graham Bell.


Otis Boykin

Otis Boykin (1920–1982) invented the electronic control devices for guided missiles, IBM computers, and the pacemaker.

Fast Fact: Boykin invented 28 different electronic devices.



Dr. Patricia E. Bath

Dr. Patricia. E. Bath (1949–) invented a method of eye surgery that has helped many blind people to see.

Fast Fact: Dr. Bath has been nominated to the National Inventors Hall of Fame.


Another good link

http://inventors.about.com/library/weekly/aa041897.htm


George Washington Carver is probably the most important person in the development and advancement of agriculture in the southern states, but if you are like me, all I heard about growing up was that he invented fuckin peanut butter. Seriously this guy basically gave the southern states a blueprint for a sustainable agrarian economy.


Its worth noting also that all those fast fact quotes I pulled are from a Scholastic Books company site, so they are basically geared towards 4th graders. Yeah, I didn't know most of them either.

Hope someone reads all of this post. I had nothing better to do.....

that was a phenomenal read, thanks a lot. Just for the record i did say "the only thing i can think of" i probably should have added "right now" but yeah..... You make some great point in this post and i actualy learned a lot i didn't know before. Again, thanks so much .

Cool beans, glad you read it all. I enjoyed taking the time to dig all that stuff up too. CB had to come in here with that monsterous can of worms and it was giving me a headache trying to formulate some kind of response to it. He might as well have asked which came first, the chicken or the egg. Its a major question that can be addressed from myriad different angles and there probably doesn't exist one ultimate correct answer to it. Jesus, its basically part of what makes us all Americans. Its part of our history and a part of it that creates a lot of questions and uncertainties.

well i'm in the process of becoming an american, and information like what you just posted it just great to know.

This should probably be a pm, but where are you from originally?