http://www.cnn.com/2005/LAW/01/12/lawye ... index.html

HEMPSTEAD, New York (AP) -- Did you hear the one about the two guys arrested for telling lawyer jokes?

It happened this week to the founders of a group called Americans for Legal Reform, who were waiting in line to get into a Long Island courthouse.

"How do you tell when a lawyer is lying?" Harvey Kash reportedly asked Carl Lanzisera.

"His lips are moving," they said in unison.

While some waiting to get into the courthouse giggled, a lawyer farther up the line Monday was not laughing.

He told them to pipe down, and when they did not, the lawyer reported the pair to court personnel, who charged them with disorderly conduct, a misdemeanor.

"They just can't take it," Kash said of lawyers in general. "This violates our First Amendment rights."

Dan Bagnuola, a spokesman for the Nassau County courts, said the men were "being abusive and they were causing a disturbance."

He said he did not have the name of the lawyer who complained.

Americans for Legal Reform monitors the courts and uses confrontational tactics to push for greater access for the public.

The pair said that for years they have stood outside courthouses on Long Island and mocked lawyers.

On Monday, however, Kash said he was due in court to answer a drunken driving charge from a year and a half ago. The men are due back in court on the disorderly conduct charge next month.
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.....and they called punkdavid a tool.

people in the US have no sense of humour...i guess that explains SNL

How would you like someone to stand outside of your job and mock you?

When youre an attorney (or working at McDonalds)it should pretty much be expected. Doesn't justify it, but still, laugh a little.

I couldn't find "Americans for Legal Reform" in a google search. It sounds like these guys were just two assholes looking to start some shit (as Long Islanders are sometimes known to do).

I did find this organization, HALT. But they seem to be legit, and respectable, so I don't think these two yahoos were affiliated with them.

There is an "Americans for Legal Reform Webring" however, and those people look like they're completely nuts. Check out this site that was linked on their front page.

http://ebionite.com/seatbelt.htm

--PunkDavid

lawyers, doctors, jews, newfies, 12 inch pianists...theyre a staple of humour everywhere....if you cant deal with it get a fucking live...you make 10 times more than i ever will, grow the fuck up

I really have no idea how to respond to that.

I knew there was a reason I didn't wear my seatbelt, its cause I secretly despise jurisprudence...

When You See A Man Wearing A Seat Belt
He Is Either A Non-Believer
Or A Babe In Messiah/Christ Who Knows No Better

--A True Disciple Of Messiah/Christ Continually Dwells In The Hands Of The Lord


i also drive my car drunk because im in the hands of the lord....it wasnt me sossifer it was jebus!!!! i swearssssss

ha ha. Still I deal with assholes mocking me at my job sometimes so I have a soft spot for anyone who has to deal with shit like that. Not all Lawyers are bad you know.

Eh, as much as I can't stand drunk drivers, I don't see how that is "disorderly conduct." Maybe they were jerks, but heck, I can't say I haven't ever laughed at that joke.

Let me ask you something. If two people stood outside of a place of business and loudly spoke unflattering words about the type of people who work for that company, would you consider that disorderly conduct? Is it just freedom of speech? If you were the target of their attacks, what would you expect to be done about them? By the police? By company management and security?

One practical consideration is that there is always a balance between the First Amendment and the Police Power. Police Power usually wins the first round, because they have the monopoly on the use of force. "Disorderly conduct" is one of those nice catchall charges that the state often uses to clear away trouble makers. Just watch the inauguration.

Anyway, these guys are lucky they just got charged with disorderly conduct. They'll get a slap on the wrist and a small fine. If they tried to pull this shit inside the courthouse, they could find themselves in contempt, and then they're in big trouble.

If these guys think they know enough about the legal system to say that it needs major reform, then maybe they ought to go to law school and reform from within.

--PunkDavid

You, of course, do have the knowledge required to reform the legal system from within, so let me pick your brain. I agree that these individuals are at the very least ignorant and posess a rudimentary understanding of the law at most, but that is the dangerous part. How many repetitions will it take until their bullshit is accepted as truth, I know many people who subscribe to similar perceptions of attorneys. Im curious, what are your suggestions for reform, there must be several.

Before I answer your question I want to stray slighty off-topic because something you wrote struck me.



Replace attorneys with reporters, and you get a topic that has been all over the news for the past couple of weeks. The fact is that 99% of reporters are professional and attempt to tell the truth in the most accurate and unbiased way they know how, however a loud minority are trying to portray them as all biased and unprofessional. I'll get back on topic, but I think you'll see the similarity of the situations.



We have to talk about specific problems before we talk about legal reform. The biggest general problem I see is that we have become a very litigious society, and the clients and the lawyers feed each other to reenforce this problem.

But we could talk at length about the specifics of tort reform (and it's ties to the insurance industry), federal sentencing guidelines (which there was just a Supreme Court ruling on yesterday), or any other number of important areas.

--PunkDavid

Everyone knows that us lawyers know the best lawyer jokes anyway...

If I was working there, I would probably ask them to leave. I don't know, I've never been in the situation, but it seems that would be the first reasonable action. Perhaps if they refuse, a police escort could be used, and if there is further trouble, disorderly conduct. Maybe all of this happened. However, it seems to me a bit extreme to charge them with disorderly conduct just for making a crack at lawyers with a well-known joke.

For all we know, that is the way it went down. It's not exactly the most fact-filled report ever filed.

Maybe the lesson is, you don't yell "pig" at a PBA function if you don't want some "stick time".

--PunkDavid

The problem is blown way out of proportion (and direction). Whether or not you should take offence at what people are saying about your job is not the key issue here. What astonishes me is that the first step is not to walk up to those people and simply COMMUNICATE that you do not appreciate the way they depict your profession and ask them to either stop what they are doing, or do it where they won't offend others. Many people (especially those in the US) seem to be losing the ability to solve conflicts on a personal level and feel the need to have "the law" backing them at every turn.

That out of the way, I'd have to say that the ability to make fun of yourself and your occupation is a very healthy one. It does not mean that you cannot have pride in yourself or in what you do, but it does show that you have the ability to view yourself in an objective matter.

I myself love poking fun at other software developers. And I actually like to be made fun of every so often. It does not affect me personally, because I know who I am and what I stand for and I am confident of my worth as a human being. When a person (in this case the lawyer) makes such a fuss about a couple of jokes, it shows clearly that he sees himself and his profession in a negative way.

I disagree. Firstly, as we've said, I think it is safe to assume that arresting these jokers was probably NOT the first step taken. In fact the report said this, "He told them to pipe down, and when they did not, the lawyer reported the pair to court personnel, who charged them with disorderly conduct, a misdemeanor." Maybe you don't consider that enough, but personally, I wouldn't want to risk getting into a physical altercation in front of my place of business when a legal remedy was easily at my disposal.

Secondly, you commented that it doesn't bother you when you and other software developers make fun of one another. Well, you are all software developers. We've noted that lawyers know all the best lawyer jokes, so that's not really the issue. The point is that these guys were being obnoxious, for the sake of being obnoxious, in front of a courthouse where they were likely to offend many people, and where the only ones laughing were the two of them.

In fact the more that I think about this, the more I think that these guys WANTED to get arrested, or at least cause a confrontation. They were able to get their message of wanting legal reform across much better by causing a scene that attracted the media than they ever could have hoped to do by merely telling jokes loudly. Especially since their "organization" doesn't seem to exist (every wacko has a WEBSITE), I think they got exactly what they were trying to get.

--PunkDavid