Post subject: You Can't Wear That Shirt - IT'S ILLEGAL!!!
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:48 am
too drunk to moderate properly
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:19 pm Posts: 39068 Location: Chapel Hill, NC, USA Gender: Male
Quote:
Lawmakers seek to stop anti-war T-shirts from naming dead soldiers By Howard Fischer Capitol Media Services Tucson, Arizona | Published: 05.14.2007
PHOENIX -- State lawmakers voted Monday to enact new laws designed to stop the sale of anti-war T-shirts with the names of dead soldiers -- a measure a veteran media lawyer says is "unconstitutional about three or four different ways."
On a 28-0 margin, the Senate agreed to make it punishable by up to a year in jail to use the names of deceased soldiers to help sell goods. The measure, SB 1014, also would let families go to court to stop the sales and collect damages.
Dan Frazier, a Flagstaff businessman who is selling the T-shirts that have caused all the fuss, told Capitol Media Services he doesn't intend to halt the sale of the $20 shirts even if Gov. Janet Napolitano signs the measure. He said it's an illegal infringement on his First Amendment rights.
Rep. Jonathan Paton, R-Tucson, a backer of the measure, doesn't see it that way. He said because Frazier is selling his shirts for a profit means it is not constitutionally protected political speech.
But attorney Dan Barr said the question of whether someone makes money is legally irrelevant.
"The fact that these people died in Iraq is nothing more than a fact," Barr said. And he said listing their names on a T-shirt -- whether sold or given away -- doesn't change that.
The shirts at issue feature the words "Bush Lied/They Died" superimposed over the names of more than 3,000 soldiers who have died since the U.S. invaded Iraq. Frazier has since come up with some variants, including one that says on one side "Support our Remaining Troops," with "Bring the Rest Home Alive" on the other.
Paton said anyone is free to put all those names on a placard and hold it up in the town square.
"It's about you selling or profiting off those soldiers' names the way somebody would off of (pop singer) Britney Spears," he said.
"I really don't see it as trading on the names (of the soldiers) the same way somebody selling a Celine Dion T-shirt is trading on her name," said Frazier.
And Barr said the T-shirts at issue do not show a single identifiable soldier, like Pat Tillman, where someone might buy the shirt solely because it features the photo of the former Arizona Cardinals safety. "The names of all these people are public record," Barr said. "It's not like they're taking something that isn't in the public domain already." Paton said the law is legally defensible, noting there are exceptions for news reports and even in books, plays, music as well as film or videos as long as these items, by themselves, are not selling anything else. But Barr said that just proves how flawed the language is.
"Books and plays are done to make money," he said. And Barr said that the measure puts the government in the position of deciding things like what is "an original work of fine art," something the courts have said is impermissible.
Frazier said it will take a court order to stop him from selling the shirts. But he said he hopes it doesn't come to that.
"It's just a hassle for me if I've got to fight this sort of stuff in court," he said.
And Frazier said he is hoping Napolitano vetoes the measure. Gubernatorial press aide Jeanine L'Ecuyer said the governor will not comment on the bill until she sees it. But a veto would be the only negative vote against it: It cleared both the House and Senate without dissent.
Frazier said all the publicity about the legislation has had one positive effect. "It always boosts my sales of my shirts," he said.
_________________ "Though some may think there should be a separation between art/music and politics, it should be reinforced that art can be a form of nonviolent protest." - e.v.
Post subject: Re: You Can't Wear That Shirt - IT'S ILLEGAL!!!
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:22 pm
Got Some
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 12:35 am Posts: 1311 Location: Lexington
Peeps wrote:
Buggy wrote:
B wrote:
a measure a veteran media lawyer says is "unconstitutional about three or four different ways."
That's almost an understatement.
no its not an understatement, it just has to be done legally, as in getting permission to use everyones name
Negative. These names are part of the public domain, and he is not profiting over the sale of their likeness, just their names. If the each soldier's name were trademarked then yes, he would require permission. However, they are not. He could put all of our names on a t-shirt and it would be legitimate as well. What he is doing is completely legal, offensive, but legal.
Freedom of expression baby.
_________________
punkdavid wrote:
Make sure to bring a bottle of vitriol. And wear a condom so you don't insinuate her.
Post subject: Re: You Can't Wear That Shirt - IT'S ILLEGAL!!!
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 12:45 pm
In a van down by the river
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 6:15 am Posts: 33031
deathbyflannel wrote:
Peeps wrote:
Buggy wrote:
B wrote:
a measure a veteran media lawyer says is "unconstitutional about three or four different ways."
That's almost an understatement.
no its not an understatement, it just has to be done legally, as in getting permission to use everyones name
Negative. These names are part of the public domain, and he is not profiting over the sale of their likeness, just their names. If the each soldier's name were trademarked then yes, he would require permission. However, they are not. He could put all of our names on a t-shirt and it would be legitimate as well. What he is doing is completely legal, offensive, but legal.
Freedom of expression baby.
i was under the impression that every person is entitled to the rights of their own name and that name can not be used for a profit with out compensation
i was under the impression that every person is entitled to the rights of their own name and that name can not be used for a profit with out compensation
I don't think that's true unless your name is copyrighted.
Post subject: Re: You Can't Wear That Shirt - IT'S ILLEGAL!!!
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:13 pm
Unthought Known
Joined: Fri Oct 22, 2004 12:47 pm Posts: 9282 Location: Atlanta Gender: Male
Peeps wrote:
deathbyflannel wrote:
Peeps wrote:
Buggy wrote:
B wrote:
a measure a veteran media lawyer says is "unconstitutional about three or four different ways."
That's almost an understatement.
no its not an understatement, it just has to be done legally, as in getting permission to use everyones name
Negative. These names are part of the public domain, and he is not profiting over the sale of their likeness, just their names. If the each soldier's name were trademarked then yes, he would require permission. However, they are not. He could put all of our names on a t-shirt and it would be legitimate as well. What he is doing is completely legal, offensive, but legal.
Freedom of expression baby.
i was under the impression that every person is entitled to the rights of their own name and that name can not be used for a profit with out compensation
Interesting question, because the NCAA uses everything but the name and likeness of it's players to earn millions of dollars from video game sales. The video game character corresponds to the real players but there are no faces or names. Then there are the Jersey sales. Yeah there is no Bush on the back of it, but everyone knows when they are buying a 5 jersey from USC it's a Reggie Bush jersey.
I guess there is a way around everything if you know the right legal loophole.
Post subject: Re: You Can't Wear That Shirt - IT'S ILLEGAL!!!
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:35 pm
Stone's Bitch
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 6:41 am Posts: 5867 Location: Providence, RI Gender: Male
Peeps wrote:
deathbyflannel wrote:
Peeps wrote:
Buggy wrote:
B wrote:
a measure a veteran media lawyer says is "unconstitutional about three or four different ways."
That's almost an understatement.
no its not an understatement, it just has to be done legally, as in getting permission to use everyones name
Negative. These names are part of the public domain, and he is not profiting over the sale of their likeness, just their names. If the each soldier's name were trademarked then yes, he would require permission. However, they are not. He could put all of our names on a t-shirt and it would be legitimate as well. What he is doing is completely legal, offensive, but legal.
Freedom of expression baby.
i was under the impression that every person is entitled to the rights of their own name and that name can not be used for a profit with out compensation
What about everyone else in the world that has that name? If I started selling shirts that said, "Larry Smith is a pole smoker," would I have to compensate every man in this country named Larry Smith?
_________________ "I wish that I believed in fate / I wish I didn't sleep so late"
"The real truth about it is: no one gets it right / The real truth about it is: we’re all supposed to try"
Post subject: Re: You Can't Wear That Shirt - IT'S ILLEGAL!!!
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 1:42 pm
too drunk to moderate properly
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:19 pm Posts: 39068 Location: Chapel Hill, NC, USA Gender: Male
Simple Torture wrote:
What about everyone else in the world that has that name? If I started selling shirts that said, "Larry Smith is a pole smoker," would I have to compensate every man in this country named Larry Smith?
I'd buy that shirt! But you'd have to change it to "Larry Smith smokes pole."
_________________ "Though some may think there should be a separation between art/music and politics, it should be reinforced that art can be a form of nonviolent protest." - e.v.
Post subject: Re: You Can't Wear That Shirt - IT'S ILLEGAL!!!
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 2:51 pm
In a van down by the river
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 6:15 am Posts: 33031
Simple Torture wrote:
What about everyone else in the world that has that name? If I started selling shirts that said, "Larry Smith is a pole smoker," would I have to compensate every man in this country named Larry Smith?
theres a difference....larry smith could be many people who smokes poles, but larry smith who was killed in iraq/afghan is someone specific
Whats funny is that probably noone hear heard about this guy and shirts before. Now their state senate goes and gives him the kind of advertisement you can't buy.
I'm thinking his sales are exploding in the wake of this.
_________________ "Socialism never took root in America because the poor see themselves not as an exploited proletariat but as temporarily embarrassed millionaires." -- John Steinbeck
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 7:19 pm Posts: 39068 Location: Chapel Hill, NC, USA Gender: Male
aprilfifth wrote:
Whats funny is that probably noone hear heard about this guy and shirts before. Now their state senate goes and gives him the kind of advertisement you can't buy.
I'm thinking his sales are exploding in the wake of this.
Go to the site. It's they're best seller, and they're using the ban as a promotion. "Our shirts are banned in four states!!!"
_________________ "Though some may think there should be a separation between art/music and politics, it should be reinforced that art can be a form of nonviolent protest." - e.v.
Post subject: Re: You Can't Wear That Shirt - IT'S ILLEGAL!!!
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:51 pm
Administrator
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 7:44 pm Posts: 8910 Location: Santa Cruz Gender: Male
Peeps wrote:
i was under the impression that every person is entitled to the rights of their own name and that name can not be used for a profit with out compensation
Do you think Bush gets compensated for all those t-shirts about him?
Post subject: Re: You Can't Wear That Shirt - IT'S ILLEGAL!!!
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 5:57 pm
In a van down by the river
Joined: Sun Oct 17, 2004 6:15 am Posts: 33031
Buggy wrote:
Peeps wrote:
i was under the impression that every person is entitled to the rights of their own name and that name can not be used for a profit with out compensation
Do you think Bush gets compensated for all those t-shirts about him?
i bet if he wanted to, he could sue the hell out of the people who make them
Post subject: Re: You Can't Wear That Shirt - IT'S ILLEGAL!!!
Posted: Wed Jun 13, 2007 6:01 pm
Mike's Maniac
Joined: Tue Mar 07, 2006 8:14 pm Posts: 15317 Location: Concord, NC Gender: Male
Peeps wrote:
Buggy wrote:
Peeps wrote:
i was under the impression that every person is entitled to the rights of their own name and that name can not be used for a profit with out compensation
Do you think Bush gets compensated for all those t-shirts about him?
i bet if he wanted to, he could sue the hell out of the people who make them
yeah, but let's face it...he's not smart enough to pull something like that off
_________________ 255 characters are nowhere near enough
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 7:44 pm Posts: 8910 Location: Santa Cruz Gender: Male
Peeps, do you remember that whole fiasco with Time magazine using Ed's picture on the cover, and they did so without his permission or consent (they didnt need it). And he's not getting any cut from Time magazine either.
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