http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/l ... 0.htmllink here

Sticker stuck in cop's craw
He's subject of probe after coming unglued over bumper theme

By Brian D. Crecente, Rocky Mountain News
January 25, 2005

A Denver police sergeant is under investigation for allegedly threatening to arrest a woman Monday for displaying on her truck a derogatory bumper sticker about President Bush.

"He told her that this was a warning and that the next time he saw her truck, she was going to be arrested if she didn't remove the sticker," said Alinna Figueroa, 25, assistant manager of The UPS Store where the confrontation took place. "I couldn't believe it."

Denver police have initiated an investigation into the alleged incident, said Police Chief Gerry Whitman. He declined to comment further.

About 11 a.m., Shasta Bates, 26, was standing in the shopping center store in the 800 block of South Monaco Parkway when a man walked in and started arguing with her about a bumper sticker on the back of her truck that had "F--- Bush" in white letters on a black background.

"He was saying it was very sick and wrong and you shouldn't be doing that," Bates said. "He was very offended by it. I said, 'You didn't have to take it so personally.' "

The two argued for a few minutes, and then the man walked out of the store and stood behind Bates' truck. A few minutes later, the man flagged down police Sgt. Michael Karasek, who was patrolling the area.

Rocky Mountain News reporter Katie Kerwin McCrimmon, who happened to be at the store at the time, walked up to the two and asked what was going on.

The man pointed the bumper sticker out to McCrimmon, and then Karasek told her that it was illegal because it was profane, McCrimmon said.

Reached late Monday, City Attorney Cole Finnegan said he didn't believe there were any city ordinances against displaying a profane bumper sticker.

Karasek then walked into the store and confronted Bates.

"He said, 'You need to take off those stickers because it's profanity and it's against the law to have profanity on your truck,' " Bates said. "Then he said, 'If you ever show up here again, I'm going to make you take those stickers off and arrest you. Never come back into that area.' "

McCrimmon, who had followed the officer into the store, said Karasek wrote down the woman's license-plate number and then told her: "You take those bumper stickers off or I will come and find you and I will arrest you."

Bates said she hasn't had many complaints about her sticker, which has shared the space on the back of her truck with many other stickers since August.

She said she put the sticker on her truck because she disagrees with Bush's stance on homosexuality and "other issues."

"I get some older men who pull up at the side of me and start yelling and cussing," she said, "but it's not a crime unless they take some action."

Colorado ACLU Legal Director Mark Silverstein said that the alleged threat of arrest clearly violates First Amendment protection.

"The Supreme Court considered a case about 30-some years ago where a person was prosecuted for wearing a jacket that said, 'F--- the draft,' on the back. The Supreme Court said states could not prohibit people from wearing such a jacket," he said. "They said, 'One man's profanity is another man's lyric.' "

Ted Halaby, chairman of the Colorado Republican Party, said that while he finds the bumper sticker's message distasteful, he also realizes that it's probably protected under the First Amendment.

"There are all sorts of derogatory bumper stickers that seem to be covered under the First Amendment," he said, "whether or not you find them personally distasteful."

Great Article. Thanks.

Although I don't like Bush, I'd never display the word FUCK on my automobile. But I'm not going to tell others they can't On the other hand how far does the 1st amendment go? Could someone display a bumper sticker that says (Hypothetically) "Die Niggers Die!"

Its a hard line to draw.

thats the whole point, it was a profane word on the bumpersticker, and having stuff like that is against the law. it just happens to be that this was against bush, so people are getting their panties in a wad, had it been fuck creed, i bet the officer would have reacted the same

This is sort of what I was referring to:




Also:




So it's not against the law.

I don't think it is a hard line to draw. But really it depends if you agree with the Oliver Holmes of Schenck or of Abrams.

Honestly, I don't see where people can find much wiggle room in the phrase "Congress shall make no law abridging the freedom of speech." Unless you feel the first amendment doesn't apply to individuals How does this not protect any bumper sticker someone wants to put on their own car?

As for your hypothetical, I'd say that is protected. It isn't a specific threat. I could handle someone seeing it that way, however. The easy test is Holmes' clear and present danger test.

“the question in every case is whether the words used are used in such circumstances and are of such a nature as to create a clear and present danger that they will bring about the substantive evils that Congress has a right to prevent”

In my opinion, Congress doesn't have the ability to curtai speech to stop racism, but it does to stop direct threats against individuals or groups that are intended to cause harm.

Absolutely not against the law unless the Court changes their decision. As trends with the court go, one of the few consistent things is their stance on free speech. They hardly ever abridge it.

I think this issue boils down to morality vs. the law.

1) Is it MORALLY good to have FUCK written on your truck? No, it's provocative no matter WHAT the case. It's not good for kids to see that and it's meant to provoke anger which is obviously does.
So in that way, I think the lady should've known better than to have that sticker on her car.

2) But legally, I think it's clear that she should be ALLOWED to have it on her truck because of the 1st amendment.

Completly agree. I do think the woman is a moron though. I hate political stickers in general. I guess there is nothing inherently wrong with a Kerry in 04', or Bush in 04' sticker, but the Christian stickers that allude to you going to hell, or the anti conservative/liberal stickers are just retarded. You are advertizing to the potentially thousands of cars you pass each day that you think that they are morons. Not real smart considering there are some nuts who will shoot you simply for cutting them off. Plus putting a word like "fuck" on the back of your car is just plain inconsiderate. I have no problem with the word personally, but using the word is not clever, or funny, and anyone who puts it on their car is just asking for trouble.

if the place she lives in has any morality laws about displays of vulgar material, then no, shes not really allowed. im sure she could fight this, but i dont think she would win, but again, im no lawyer nor judge

did it say fuck or f---?

People walk outside today and they see people doing drugs on the street, practically having sex in public, fighting, kids being abandoned, people going hungry, dying in wars, and who knows what else and you think having the word "fuck" on someones car is that big a deal? It's a word. A word used in the real world. The more kids understand the world, the better off they will be. Saying "fuck" doesnt hurt anyone. I think I'm offended that you are assuming your morals are everyones morals. I think it's morally FINE to have "fuck" on your car. And I dont have a problem with kids seeing the word "fuck". Any responsable parent will teach their kids to understand the world well.

I'm goin to get a bumper sticker on my car that says "Life is FUCKING awesome".

by using your logic though, the word asshole, douchbag and prick are encountered every day by people, yet we get a stern warning for it on here and are told to cut it out. no difference at all. plus im assuming you mean kids who are atleast 10 have probably heard that word. i personally used the term, mother effer up until about 6th-7th grade.

so where do you draw the line. when you and your wife have your child, do you want some guy standing behind you saying how he ass fucked this chick and came all over her back and made her blow him? or will you be a responsible parent and give him a stern look and ask that he not speak like that in so public a place?

last night playing basketball, i missed a layup and dropped a huge jesus fucking christ bomb on the gym. the one guy's wife and young son were there, and i immediately went over and apologized to them, and then after the game apologized to him. he told me i didnt have to, his son has heard worse, but that he appreciated my gesture.

I'm still trying to figure out why the title of this thread is "woman threatened with arrest for anti-Bush bumper sticker" when clearly the story is "woman threatened for arrest for having the word FUCK on her bumper sticker"

What would likely happen in such a case is that it would go all the way to the Supreme Court where they'd likely rule in her favor. But that's years down the line, surely.

because people LOVE to blame anything and everything on bush, instead of using common sense and seeing what the real issue is

I see what you're saying. And of course there are things that people do that I dont agree with. But I think my remarks were aimed more at the point that my morals are not everones morals, and the previous user who was coming across like their morals WERE everyones morals was ticking me off.

Buggy

Don't get me wrong here. I have no problems saying or using FUCK and actually LIKE the bumper sticker. (I love all ANTI-BUSH bumper stickers!) But at the same time, I think the lady should've known better than to have something on her car like that AND not expect to be hassled. So while I 100% endorse her right to have that freedom of expression and even endorse the exact message she is addressing, I think by having something provocative on your car, you open yourself to all sort of troubles. And personally, I think that that kind of provocative statement doesn’t accomplish anything. It’s meant to get her attention which she probably gets a kick out of. But then she’s going to have to expect people to give her hard time.

As for the issue of curse words and morality, perhaps I misspoke, I think that’s a totally different issue. I think it’s an issue of reality vs. the ideal. And maybe it’s not so much an issue of morality but rather an issue of knowing what is generally considerate behavior. And this could go off on a George Carlin tangent, but, IDEALLY, there shouldn’t be these small sets of words that most people consider “taboo”. Words are words and it is only we who give them the meanings they have. But in the REALITY, there are these strangely assembled words that we embue with meanings. People consider the word FUCK to be offensive. And I think most English speakers would agree with that statement. So just like I don’t think it’s smart to regularly use the word “FUCK” in front of your teacher or supervisor, I don’t think it’s smart to use “FUCK” on a bumper sticker in your car. Do I think we should forbid anyone using that word? Of course not. But as humans we all have to sort of buy into generally acceptable forms of behaviours with one another. And if you enter gray areas, I think you have to be willing to accept the consequences. So if you want to teach kids to say “FUCK YOU” because you want to de-mystify swearing, I think you’re entitled to do that. But at the same time, if parents or cops give you a hard time about it, I think you had to expect that. That is the reality vs. the ideal. So maybe I threw the word morality around too casually but maybe I was trying to express how I think she entered into a grey area outside of what most people buy into as generally appropriate modes of behavior. Do I think she should be able to do that, of course, but like I said, if I use the word “FUCK” in front of my boss, I might get fired. She puts FUCK on her car, she’s gonna get people giving her shit about it.

You are right, but as soon as a cop suits up for his shift he surrenders his right to have an opinion and is solely there to uphold the law, his opinions and morals be damned.

Rocky Mountain News
http://www.rockymountainnews.com/drmn/l ... 69,00.html

Denver police Sgt. Michael Karasek thought he was following law.

Cop pays sticker price
He'll be punished for arrest threat over anti-Bush label

By Brian D. Crecente, Rocky Mountain News
January 26, 2005

Denver police Sgt. Michael Karasek will be disciplined for threatening to arrest a woman for displaying on her truck a profane bumper sticker about President Bush, Police Chief Gerry Whitman said Tuesday.

An internal affairs investigation took just a day to complete, and the allegation against the officer was upheld, Whitman said.

He declined to say what the discipline would be but said that all the department's officers will receive "training about the topic."

About 11 a.m. Monday, Shasta Bates, 26, was confronted by a man while standing in a UPS store. The man told her he was upset by her bumper sticker, which read "F--- Bush."

The man then went outside and flagged down Karasek, who was working off-duty in uniform at the shopping center, in the 800 block of South Monaco Parkway.

After reading the sticker and talking to the man, Karasek went into the store to confront Bates.

Bates, three UPS employees and a Rocky Mountain News reporter who happened to be there all say that the officer threatened to arrest the woman if she didn't remove the bumper sticker from her truck.

Bates filed a complaint against the officer with the department.

Karasek told investigators that he did threaten the woman with arrest, but at the time he thought he was following the law, a police source said. He realized shortly after the confrontation that he was wrong, the source said.

The Rocky Mountain News story spurred powerful and mixed reactions.

Several directed the obscenity at Karasek or Bates, while others were more philosophical.

Bates was surprised at the attention the incident drew. She added that she understood the officer made a mistake.

"Everybody makes mistakes," she said, "but you have to get punished for them."

crecenteb@RockyMountainNews.com or 303-892-2811


Copyright 2005, Rocky Mountain News. All Rights Reserved.

If there is a law on the Denver books that forbids printed profane language in public, then at this current time it must be enforced, and the officer can't be held to blame for that.

However, I feel that that law would be a breach of the First Amendment, and the woman should either a) challenge it in court, or b) go to the Denver city council and try to get the law repealed.