being a glob of cells who struggled through the risk of miscarriage and was born and became a human being who feels, thinks, laughs, cries, loves, writes songs and embodies a divine spirit, well, this discussion makes me shiver. the idea that someone can find him/herself entitled the power to decide that i'm sacrificeable (i wonder if this word exists...) for a greater good freaks me out. again, i have no alternatives to suggest. or maybe i have. science in the Western civilizations took the path of experimentation allied with technological advance. Eastern civilizations have long enough stated knowledge that only now is being "confirmed" by Western science. do we really need the drugs that Western science produces, at the costs that have been mentioned? Chinese and Indian (Ayurvedic) Medicines, phitoterapy, homeopathy, are milennial and have a bulky body of knowledge, suspiciously overlooked by Western science as "not verified". how long are we going on with this madness, despising knowledge that's available and less expensive to all because it doesn't fit "the acceptable patterns"? who makes the patterns? that reminds me of the "tale of the roasted boars", i'll tell it later, i have to go now.

edit: the tale of the rusted boars

once upon a time there was a village next to a huge woodland. they were very poor and lived on the edge of starvation. one night, there was a great fire in the woods. the next morning, the townspeople wandered around the forest and discovered that amongst the burned trees and animals, a herd of wild boars had been rusted, some to ashes, some to coal, but some to a degree that allowed people to eat the meat. the discovery was welcomed by the community of the village as a solution to their food problem, so they decided to dedicate themselves to the new activity of roasting pigs. they created a group to set fire to parts of the woods that had not been burnt the first time. the problem was that not always there were boars in the places that they burned to be roasted, so they created another group in charge of finding the groups of boars and scaring them to run to the places to be burnt. it went on for some time, but as the population grew, they realized that: 1) the woods wood be over soon if they kept burning it and 2) there was a lot of waste with the boars burning to ashes or coal, that couldn't be eaten. so they decided to create committees of townspeople to solve both problems. the now called Boar Committee came up with the idea of building pathways through marked places in the woods where the boars would walk and be submitted to a controlled ammount of fire, by the now called Fire Committee, so that they would roast to the proper degree. the Woods Committee came up with the idea of reforesting areas formerly burned, so they would always have wood to burn. as years passed, and the community evolved, the Ministry of Boar developed new breeds of boars, with special flavors. the Ministry of Fire trained thousands of brigades of firemakers and fire fighters, special fire equipment, different kinds of fuel that affected the taste of the meat. the Ministry of Woods developed many new species of trees that would add not only a different taste to the meat, but also that would burn faster, or slower, when the boars passed through the high-tech pathways in the woods to be roasted. the community prospered. one day, firemaker # 365869043 was sitting by the entrance of the woods, smoking a cig, and then one idea struck him: "what if i built a box, where i could put the wood, already cut, and a tray where i could put the meat of a previously slaughtered boar, already seasoned, and then i could light the fire and roast the boar enough for a person or a family?" he told about his idea to his firemakers group manager. he though it was a good idea and told the general manager of the firemakers group. after some time, the idea climbed up to the ears of a high deputy in the Ministry of Fire. he immediately summoned a general Ministry secret meeting. after long and inflamed discussions, it was decided that: the idea, besides being absurd, is dangerous, because it jeopardizes the foundations of the community. if wide spread, it could cause the destruction of the social structures, bringing chaos; therefore, all people ever exposed to the idea , except of course the members of the Board of Ministers, should be "dealt with". and it was done. the end.

you embody a divine spirit? well, goddamn.

Anyway, your first sentence is wrong on a lot of levels. One, you aren't a glob of cells, so you aren't being one. Yeah, at some point in the first stage of your development you were a glob of cells. So what? Noone is saying you are sacrificeable, well, maybe the army, but noone here. As for other cultures and their points of view, some Indian cultures don't consider humans people until they're given a name, and they aren't given a name until they reach a stage of self-awareness. So, again, the point is what, that we should completely submit to eastern medicine and witch doctors and not attempt to look for new medicines and cures by other means? What is the rationale behind giving anything from the point of a fertilized egg the same rights and significance as fully born animals? I see these things as slightly more important than a sperm or an egg and not even close to as important as a baby, or even a fetus.

What qualities do globs of cells in a petri dish possess that make their worth remotely close to that of an animal?

Anyway, yes we need the drugs of western science. Ask traditional shamans in sub Saharan Africa if the retroviral HIV drugs help their patients. Ask the sick in the forests of Brazil, where you live, if they would try aspirin to attempt to cure themselves when they are possessed by evil spirits. Who knows, maybe penicillin doesn't actually cure anything.

homeopathics

natural healing

spirits

shamans

supplements

herbals

ricky williams

etc, etc, etc.......all EXTREMELY laughable.

Dear Jim,

The thing on the side of the bong where you stuff your weed is called a "carb".

Sincerely,

Ricky Williams

how very close-minded of you.

Quite the contrary, I probably have more experience with them than you, especially when it comes to debunking them.

We deal with this type of crap on a daily basis in the sports world.

Why don't you tell us more about how you arrived at your conclusions. Start a new thread if want to.

Most all of the things in your list serve extremely valid functions where used. Anyone worth their salt that does work with remote indigenous cultures knows they need to work with the local healers or else their efforts will be futile. How can doctors cure patients they aren't willing to understand?

This is in reference to homeopathics, supplements, alterna-therapy, and herbals used domestically, and not in reference to indigenous species.

umm, we're all the same species. homo habilis isn't inhabiting the Amazon.

Not really necessary.

I have to research any supplement or herbal plopped on my desk or being consumed by my athletes, and this takes place (at times) weekly.

For me, GNC is a place that creates more work. Mainly, I have to dig through peer-reviewed journals and studies on the supplements (where available) and for all but creatine, a few others, and banned substances...NONE of them have been found to work with some having negative side effects as well. For liability reasons, and out of concern, I do this as part of my job.

In terms of homeopathic and alternative therapies, one fine example is that of "life-waves" and "magnetics". Research time and time again has debunked the claims of ergogenic effect by companies producing such equipment.

After doing this for the past five years, I have little to no faith in alternative medicine, supplemenation, and herbal/homeopathic remedy.

And I AM open-minded...for I always look for the research before making a determination.

The effects of "natural" healing techniques abroad are primarily placebo.

That is not to discount the placebo effect's power. But it does not make "natural" healing of indigionous peoples effective cures outside of that effect.

Psychology is important, but the palpable science lies in western medicine.

Homeopathic remedies have worked in small children and animals. That can't be a placebo effect. Why do you go beyond what the AMA or the AAP says about homeopathics? Do you have a professional bias against them?

This isn't just about effective cures, it's about treatment. It's simply unwise to treat these people without the aid of shamans, etc. It was a disaster when they tried it and it would be if it was still ongoing.

No bias, just skepticism and well-founded at that.

As for being cures? They are not. Treatments? I suppose. The added psychological effect of such "alternatives" may be helpful, but will only cure pathology when coupled with an actual scientifically-sound cure.

like the cures for aids and cancer science has currently produced?

Homeopathy can help ease symptoms in earaches and like illnesses, can it not?

and you didn't answer about children and animals. How can success in treating them be due to a placebo effect?

Homeopathy will not lead to cures for aids or cancer. That was laugable.

As for earaches...lets examine what occurred to me this past January, when I utilized a home remedy to remove ear wax and ended up impacting it far worse.

It is unregulated for the most part, unscientific, reliant on placebo effect, and masks symptoms without curing the problems.

I am skeptical by experience, education, and common sense.

On a personal note, cancer treatment has been effective for my grandmother...twice.

None of which was "homeopathic"

My uncle, on the other hand, chose a homeopathic clinic in Texas, and died a few months later.

They both had the same type of cancer, with HIS being far less risk to his life at the time.

I am skeptical.

It may work for some, but then again, sometimes you win the lottery too.

I'll take my chances with the REAL scientists, and you can have your voodoo dolls and shamans Davo.

firstly, i edited.

Secondly, i didn't even imply that homeopathic remedies could cure anything. I was simply observing that science has no cure for these things. If there is no cure then why not use something that eases symptoms? If we're using isolated personal experiences, I've had ear infections my entire life, and really bad ones at that. I've never had it cured and nothing has ever really helped it. When I am on planes at times I am brought to tears from the pain in my head due to my ears. But, when I took a homeopathic ear drop it eased the pain after the fact as well as keeping it from happening another time. Also, I gave some to a crying young girl sitting next to me. She stopped crying. Was it because of the remedy? I don't know, either way I seriously hope you don't use your one personal experience as a rule in all medicine. Penicillin almost killed my brother, that doesn't make it worthless. Things affect different people differently.

It is regulated. Its success in children and animals nullifies your placebo argument. So what else?

now, while in general I appreciate condescension, I don't at the moment. Anyway, since personal experience rules your belief system there probably isn't anything anyone can do to convince you of anything. So whatever. All I know is this society is heavily overmedicated by its doctors because that's the easiest thing to do. But whatever, you can have your doctors that physically kill thousands of their patients every year due to negligence yet still expect deference in the legal system.