Post subject: Mortgage-backed securities and mark-to-market
Posted: Thu Mar 06, 2008 11:41 pm
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Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:51 pm Posts: 14534 Location: Mesa,AZ
Has anyone been paying attention to the latest round of the ongoing credit crisis? This week, Thornburg Mortgage's stocks crashed and the company risks bankruptcy now because its creditors use mark-to-market accounting. Essentially, what this means is that Thornburg's assets are valued at the current sales price of similar securities, which obviously are not doing so well right now. This has caused JP Morgan, one of their creditors, to issue margin calls on Thornburg's debt, pushing them into a liquidity crisis and onto the verge of bankruptcy. Now because they've struggled to meet JPM's margin calls, their other creditors are beginning to issue margin calls of their own, and other lenders (e.g., Carlyle) are being thrown into the mix. This market is just insane, and companies that had generally good practices are paying for the mistakes of the greedy ones.
It sounds like a bunch of financial mumbo jumbo, but it really is a really crappy situation. Thornburg was one of the responsible lenders, they didn't touch subprimes, and they have very low delinquency rates in comparison to other lenders. But because the market has been polluted with subprimes/foreclosures, the idiots at JP Morgan go and decide to throw Thornburg under the bus by forcing them to sell assets at $.10 on the dollar, even though Thornburg's collateral isn't littered with subprimes. So lots of shareholders lost loads of money and the credit crunch (and therefore the economy) got a little worse because JP Morgan got greedy demanded their money now, using a bad accounting practice as the claim.
So, next time you see one of the JP Morgan execs at lunch, personally thank them for doing their part to help this country avoid recession.
_________________
John Adams wrote:
In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress.
Everything you said is true except its not JP Morgan's fault. They aren't the ones creating the current liquidity crisis. They are not setting the 'marks' forcing them into margin call territory. The market is determining what the 'fair value' is, even if it might be irrational (based on future cash flows of the mortgages and default risk/asset recovery value). Basically, they are throwing the baby out with the bath water. There are plenty of tranches of even subprime debt that will be made whole once this thing is sorted out. Its a very bad situation though, the credit markets have completely turned off. I'm an insitutional money manager but I only deal with equities and am very limited in my knowledge of financials in general. Most of them are 'black boxes' that have all sorts of things on their balance sheet that not even the CFO of the company can tell you with certainty what 'fair value' might be in 6 months. Thornburg is a perfect example...they paid a dividend just in december after previously shelving it. They would never have reinstituted the dividend if they thought they were going to be facing margin calls.
I agree with you though, they were one of the responsible ones and are suffering badly from a rush to the exits throughout all asset classes - not just mortgage backed securities. Look at the stock market today.
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As someone who has 60% of their assets in SKF, I thought the margin call was great. I hope it happens to more banks, and it most likely will.
you have 60% of your assets in a levered short on financials? you are essentially 120% short financials. that takes stones. are you long anything to offset it?
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As someone who has 60% of their assets in SKF, I thought the margin call was great. I hope it happens to more banks, and it most likely will.
you have 60% of your assets in a levered short on financials? you are essentially 120% short financials. that takes stones. are you long anything to offset it?
I am not long any financial related stocks, but the other 40% is almost all longs in other industries. I'll probably be out of SKF by the next Fed meeting.
Post subject: Re: Mortgage-backed securities and mark-to-market
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 12:52 am
Administrator
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:51 pm Posts: 14534 Location: Mesa,AZ
given2trade wrote:
Everything you said is true except its not JP Morgan's fault. They aren't the ones creating the current liquidity crisis. They are not setting the 'marks' forcing them into margin call territory. The market is determining what the 'fair value' is, even if it might be irrational (based on future cash flows of the mortgages and default risk/asset recovery value). Basically, they are throwing the baby out with the bath water. There are plenty of tranches of even subprime debt that will be made whole once this thing is sorted out. Its a very bad situation though, the credit markets have completely turned off. I'm an insitutional money manager but I only deal with equities and am very limited in my knowledge of financials in general. Most of them are 'black boxes' that have all sorts of things on their balance sheet that not even the CFO of the company can tell you with certainty what 'fair value' might be in 6 months. Thornburg is a perfect example...they paid a dividend just in december after previously shelving it. They would never have reinstituted the dividend if they thought they were going to be facing margin calls.
I agree with you though, they were one of the responsible ones and are suffering badly from a rush to the exits throughout all asset classes - not just mortgage backed securities. Look at the stock market today.
Is anyone/anything forcing JP Morgan to use mark-to-market accounting?
I wouldn't say the market determines fair value--all it determines is what people are currently willing to pay for it. The other problem is, a Thornburg security, because of its higher quality mortgages, might be worth more than a different lender's security, but mark to market ties the value of TMA's security to what other lenders' securities are selling for. It's absurd. JPM are really coming off as opportunists right now, and judging by the drop in stock prices across the board in finance, they're doing more harm than good by issuing the margin calls.
_________________
John Adams wrote:
In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress.
Everything you said is true except its not JP Morgan's fault. They aren't the ones creating the current liquidity crisis. They are not setting the 'marks' forcing them into margin call territory. The market is determining what the 'fair value' is, even if it might be irrational (based on future cash flows of the mortgages and default risk/asset recovery value). Basically, they are throwing the baby out with the bath water. There are plenty of tranches of even subprime debt that will be made whole once this thing is sorted out. Its a very bad situation though, the credit markets have completely turned off. I'm an insitutional money manager but I only deal with equities and am very limited in my knowledge of financials in general. Most of them are 'black boxes' that have all sorts of things on their balance sheet that not even the CFO of the company can tell you with certainty what 'fair value' might be in 6 months. Thornburg is a perfect example...they paid a dividend just in december after previously shelving it. They would never have reinstituted the dividend if they thought they were going to be facing margin calls.
I agree with you though, they were one of the responsible ones and are suffering badly from a rush to the exits throughout all asset classes - not just mortgage backed securities. Look at the stock market today.
Is anyone/anything forcing JP Morgan to use mark-to-market accounting?
I wouldn't say the market determines fair value--all it determines is what people are currently willing to pay for it. The other problem is, a Thornburg security, because of its higher quality mortgages, might be worth more than a different lender's security, but mark to market ties the value of TMA's security to what other lenders' securities are selling for. It's absurd. JPM are really coming off as opportunists right now, and judging by the drop in stock prices across the board in finance, they're doing more harm than good by issuing the margin calls.
This simply isn't true. They aren't profiting AT ALL from forcing the margin call. They are simply forcing TMA to sell assets in the public market and return the cash they borrowed from JP Morgan with the proceeds.
You have to go by what the public mark is, if there is one. Do you know the disaster we would have if we didn't?
Let's say I deposit $100 in a stock account. I buy 20 shares of XYZ at $10. I use $100 of my money and $100 of etrades. Let's say XYZ declines to $5 BUT the underlying business, its cash flows, its future prospects everything - are the exact same as they were when it was $10 - its just public irrationality. What should etrade do? If they don't sell the securities out they will start to lose money on the $100 they loaned me to buy XYZ. My equity is currently worthless as the 20 shares are only *worth* $100 and I owe $100 to etrade. Etrade doesnt take the securities and wait for them to rebound, taking advantage of me. They simply sell them in the public market and recoup their loan. They are NOT in the business of owning securities. They are in the loan making business.
This is all JP Morgan did. It is irrelevant if the underlying securities are being fairly punished and shouldn't be 'marked' at the current prices. It is not of JP Morgan's concern. The 'fair value' is what the collective world determines it is, based on the public market price.
Now if there is no public market for a security thats an entirely different situation, but that is not the case here.
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Also, yes of course I agree with you the market doesn't determine fair value. If I believed that I wouldn't manage money for a living. But, every month my investors get their returns based on the PUBLICLY QUOTED PRICES of the stocks we own...not what we 'think they should be trading at'. But I wish I could do that
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Post subject: Re: Mortgage-backed securities and mark-to-market
Posted: Fri Mar 07, 2008 1:05 am
Supersonic
Joined: Thu Nov 04, 2004 2:43 am Posts: 10694
I wouldn't be shorting financials too much longer.
I was going to wait for the market to get to 11,000 before I started investing again, but it almost seems like everything is already priced into the markets.
Financials could go lower, but they have taken a SEVERE hit. And some people are starting to say that it was too much of a hit.
If I had hedged at the top, I would definitely feel comfortable getting out of that position now. They're not going to go down forever.
I wouldn't be shorting financials too much longer.
I was going to wait for the market to get to 11,000 before I started investing again, but it almost seems like everything is already priced into the markets.
Financials could go lower, but they have taken a SEVERE hit. And some people are starting to say that it was too much of a hit.
If I had hedged at the top, I would definitely feel comfortable getting out of that position now. They're not going to go down forever.
I don't think the financials have taken too much of a hit. It'd be much worse if the bond rating agencies weren't such a fraud and did their jobs.
I wouldn't be shorting financials too much longer.
I was going to wait for the market to get to 11,000 before I started investing again, but it almost seems like everything is already priced into the markets.
Financials could go lower, but they have taken a SEVERE hit. And some people are starting to say that it was too much of a hit.
If I had hedged at the top, I would definitely feel comfortable getting out of that position now. They're not going to go down forever.
I don't think the financials have taken too much of a hit. It'd be much worse if the bond rating agencies weren't such a fraud and did their jobs.
I agree. People forget that financials are highly levered and small hits to their assets (writedowns/losses) cause severe equity losses in their stock.
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A crisis - marked to marketBlame marking to market. And the law of unintended consequences.
Paul Davies in Friday’s Insight column picks up a paper from Tobias Adrian, an economist at the New York Fed, and Hyun Song Shin of Princeton University - the pair who have also lately been writing about financial contagion in the Banque de France’s Financial Stability Review.
In it they argue that the move towards fair value accounting by regulators in the 1990s sped up a process of pro-cyclical balance sheet expansion by the banks.
The paper concludes it was inevitable that an industry buoyed by rising asset prices would pursue increasingly aggressive lending growth. This pushed credit upon ever more risky clients and loan structures, which then fed into asset price growth. This of course added more fuel to the fire — or created “positive feedback loops”. The most disturbing conclusion is that this system should behave in exactly the same way in reverse, creating “negative feedback loops” with a destructive impact on all kinds of asset values — from structured finance to house prices and equities.
Securitisation, says Davies, also played a role. The lesson for regulators again is that the solution to one problem almost always contains the seeds of another.
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Carlyle Capital Expects Banks to Seize Some $16B in Assets After No Agreement on Refinancing
NEW YORK (AP) -- Carlyle Capital Corp. said it expects creditors to seize all of the fund's remaining assets after unsuccessful negotiations to prevent its liquidation, sending its shares plunging.
The Amsterdam-listed fund shook financial markets last week after missing margin calls from banks on its $21.7 billion portfolio of residential-mortgage-backed bonds. Carlyle's troubles have amplified fears that billions of dollars of depressed mortgage-backed securities will flood the market, reducing their value even further.
More than $5 billion of Carlyle's securities have already been sold, but the fund tried to negotiate with the banks to prevent the liquidation of the remaining $16 billion.
"Although it has been working diligently with its lenders, the company has not been able to reach a mutually beneficial agreement to stabilize its financing," Carlyle said in a news release.
Shares tumbled 94 percent to 18 cents in Amersterdam. The shares have lost more than 98 percent of their value this year and traded at $12 just last week.
More than a year ago, the fund leveraged its $670 million equity 32 times to finance a $21.7 billion portfolio of AAA-rated residential mortgage-backed securities issued by Freddie Mac and Fannie Mae. It borrowed money from at least a dozen banks and firms, including Bank of America Corp., Citigroup Inc. and Merrill Lynch & Co.
Carlyle posted the securities as collateral under repurchase agreements, so if the value of the securities fall, the lender has the right to ask for more collateral -- a margin call -- to secure the loan. If the borrower does not meet the margin call, the lender may sell the security.
The value of mortgage-backed securities plummeted as U.S. home prices fell and foreclosures surged, prompting the banks to ask Carlyle for more than $400 million in additional capital. The fund was unable to come up with the money, prompting lenders to start foreclosing on the securities.
As of Wednesday, Carlyle said it has defaulted on about $16.6 billion of its debt, and the rest is expected to go into default soon.
Carlyle Capital Corp. is one of 55 funds managed by the Washington, D.C.-based Carlyle Group, one of the largest private equity firms in the world with $76 billion in assets.
Carlyle Group "participated actively" in the fund's negotiations with its lenders to refinance its portfolio and was prepared to provide substantial additional capital if sustainable terms could be achieved, the fund's statement said.
But hopes for refinancing fell apart after some lenders said the value of the collateral had declined further, which would result in additional margin calls Thursday of about $97.5 million.
Carlyle Capital is registered in Guernsey, a U.K. dependency in the English Channel off the coast of Normandy, but managed by New York-based executives. It was the first Carlyle Group fund to go public, at $19 a share in July on the Euronext exchange in Amsterdam.
Trading of the fund's shares was suspended last week after tumbling more than 50 percent to $5 apiece on the news that the fund wasn't able to meet the margin calls.
Post subject: Re: Mortgage-backed securities and mark-to-market
Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 6:11 pm
Administrator
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:51 pm Posts: 14534 Location: Mesa,AZ
Meh, I could care less about Carlyle Group... They seem to always be involved with some of society's most despised characters (George W. Bush, Steven Norris (who rescued SCO), etc), so it might actually be nice to see them suffer.
In related news, I wish I would've bought some of that $.70 TMA stock on Monday:
Thornburg's Double Double By Morgan Housel March 13, 2008
3 Recommendations
Real investors rarely take daily stock movements seriously. What a stock does from day to day, month to month, even year to year, is at the mercy of emotional investors with serious short-term vision problems. Rationality is sometimes thrown out the window.
But this week, Thornburg Mortgage (NYSE: TMA) quadrupled in price, essentially doubling in value in two separate trading sessions. This is a big, big deal and a serious move for a company like Thornburg, with a market cap approaching $500 million. This isn't a Vegas-style penny stock.
What lies behind the two-day super surge?
The good, the bad, the worse Thornburg is a good company focused on a horrible product in an even uglier industry -- jumbo mortgages (greater than $417,000) that can't be sold to Fannie Mae (NYSE: FNM) or Freddie Mac (NYSE: FRE).
Although it deals with products that, as we've seen lately, haven't held their merit, Thornburg claims it has done well over the years, considering the clients it dealt with, at keeping loans as conservative as possible. In a housing market that seems to crater deeper by the day, Thornburg says the credit performance of its loans ranks among the best in the industry.
Nonetheless, Thornburg relies on two factors outside its control: leverage from other financial institutions and a debt market gone haywire trying to provide market prices on its investments. As the market for anything that smelled like mortgage products came to a halt, the value of Thornburg's assets -- quality aside -- came crashing down. And since it used leverage to finance those assets, Thornburg's bankers lined up at the door demanding their money back.
Thornburg has a hard time selling its assets in the open market to raise cash -- the market for mortgage-backed securities has been in hibernation for months. The situation amounts to screaming "Fire!" in a crowded theater: Decent quality assets, no market to sell them in, and crowds of bankers with their hands out. Did I hear someone humming Taps?
As time ran out and margin calls couldn't be met, the rumors started about that word that makes every struggling company tremble: bankruptcy.
Do I hear the cavalry? All that changed Tuesday when the Federal Reserve agreed to take on $200 billion in mortgage debt, adding liquidity to a frozen debt market. That changes everything for Thornburg. If it can begin selling assets, it shouldn't have a problem raising ample cash to shore up its balance sheet and meet margin calls from JPMorgan (NYSE: JPM) and Morgan Stanley (NYSE: MS), among others. Stand down, grim reaper.
Cats aren't the only ones with nine lives In any market shakeout, the strongest of the strong survive and perform well in the ensuing less-competitive market. Amazon.com and eBay proved the strength of their business models after the dot-com bust, going on to dominate a market cluttered with gravestones.
This credit crunch is likely far from over, but looking into who might make it out alive is a good idea. With the recent change of events, Thornburg could make that list.
Of course, Thornburg has a way to go. On Tuesday, it restated fourth-quarter net income, reversing what was once $0.33 per share in earnings into a loss of $4.74 per share. That's a pretty hefty about-face, and highlights just how out of whack the mortgage industry has become.
Truth be told, the recent turmoil will make a sizable dent in Thornburg's ability to create shareholder value. Being forced to sell assets at a serious discount will certainly hamper its future earnings power. Even after the market recovers, it will likely be drastically smaller in years to come.
A new shot at life But with Fed chief Ben Bernanke now on its side, Thornburg will likely live to see another day. With shares still sitting about 70% below where they started the year -- even before today's dip -- there's still room for big gains in time.
Thornburg has dodged serious bullets in the past few days. It, and other conservative mortgage players such as Annaly Capital (NYSE: NLY), now have a new shot. For once, at last, good news in an industry loaded with fear.
I actually like this Fed plan alot better than the rate cuts.
_________________
John Adams wrote:
In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress.
Is there a "that went completely over my head" emoticon?
I didn't get most of that either. I have found that finance people, like sociologists, like to make up complicated terms to explain simple things so that they sound smarter than they actually is. Basically, Wall Street has made billions selling the anticipated profit from things like adjustable rate mortgages by packing large groups of them together and selling that grouping. That investor then packaged a bunch of those groupings together and sold that someone else by contract. This process can be repeated several times. Now that the real value of the original asset, the mortgages, is in trouble, investors and banks are starting to wonder just how these groupings of groupings of assets are worth, but since the whole thing is like a game of telephone, and not really regulated, no one is sure what the real value is or how much investors and traders are owed by the various contracts.
When they talk about shorting financials, they mean that they have bought the right to sell someone a stock at a particular price based on the idea that in the future the price of stocks in the finance industry will drop and they can make a profit when actually perform the selling transaction.
Post subject: Re: Mortgage-backed securities and mark-to-market
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 2:01 pm
Administrator
Joined: Sat Oct 16, 2004 10:51 pm Posts: 14534 Location: Mesa,AZ
broken iris wrote:
Orpheus wrote:
Is there a "that went completely over my head" emoticon?
I didn't get most of that either. I have found that finance people, like sociologists, like to make up complicated terms to explain simple things so that they sound smarter than they actually is. Basically, Wall Street has made billions selling the anticipated profit from things like adjustable rate mortgages by packing large groups of them together and selling that grouping. That investor then packaged a bunch of those groupings together and sold that someone else by contract. This process can be repeated several times. Now that the real value of the original asset, the mortgages, is in trouble, investors and banks are starting to wonder just how these groupings of groupings of assets are worth, but since the whole thing is like a game of telephone, and not really regulated, no one is sure what the real value is or how much investors and traders are owed by the various contracts.
When they talk about shorting financials, they mean that they have bought the right to sell someone a stock at a particular price based on the idea that in the future the price of stocks in the finance industry will drop and they can make a profit when actually perform the selling transaction.
Or at least that what I think it means.
Meh, I'm not a financial person, and I never found that they were just making up terms to sound "smart". You have to have some term to describe something... Should they always refer to securities as loan bundles secured by liens? Should they always refer to shorting something as betting against something's future value? Should they always refer to reverse repurchasing agreements as loans where the buyer agrees to immediately repay the seller if the immediate market value of the collateral decreases a certain percent? Having jargon in any industry certainly saves alot of breath (and, unlike sociology, these are real concepts ).
_________________
John Adams wrote:
In my many years I have come to a conclusion that one useless man is a shame, two is a law firm, and three or more is a congress.
Post subject: Re: Mortgage-backed securities and mark-to-market
Posted: Fri Mar 14, 2008 8:55 pm
Force of Nature
Joined: Fri Aug 19, 2005 4:52 pm Posts: 770 Location: New York City Via Buffalo NY
didn't know if we should create a new post or just add the bear stearns problems here. my feeling about the financial industry is that its similar to the airline industry. as long as all ticketed passengers can get to their destination within reason of the original time put on the ticket, everyone is happy. But one big storm, and flights get cancelled and plans are potentially ruined, everyone scrambles to find out who is to blame. and in the airlines its always the weather and the fact that planes are used for multiple routes.
as for bear stearns. i don't know what the full picture is. it sounds like they were a huge underwriter of Mortgage backed pools, no one bought the pools, their fees went down, and they simply don't have the cash to fund the rest of their activities because such a large portion was financed by their mortgage backed revenues.
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