do you think we have free will?



actually, i don't really understand this. could you explain?



OK, now we're getting somewhere. i think most on the other side would say they'd not want to worship a being who would put people through the suffering he's created, though that's just one part of the argument they'd put forth. i nearly always cite the horrible case of jessica lunsford here.

Christian teaching claims that God did not create the world with death or disease. We were never supposed to die. But God gave us free will. Once we used that free will to turn away from him, to place ourselves into a position of higher importance, we brought death into the world.

If God had created us without free will, we would be robots, which would cancel out our purpose to begin with.

Surely, you've heard all this before.

so, basically you're calling me closed-minded. you say i don't understand, yet you don't want to get into a discussion with me about it because you think i'll never understand.

No. It's not that i don't think you'll ever understand.

I just don't think it's something that anyone else can explain to you (or anyone else). There is nothing that i could say that would make you go "OH SHIT!! That makes perfect sense!!! I believe in God now". It's such a personal revelation and no other person could ever lead you to it, i don't think.

I also feel like you already know all the dogma that i could possibly state. I could be wrong about that, and if so i'm sorry for assuming. I just don't like to be drawn into saying things that i think the other person already knows, just for the sake of starting an argument.

It's like trying to describe a sensory experience to someone who hasn't had it before. You may get all the particulars but you'll never get the experience.

absolutely. i attribute it to god's mercy and rationality that we do. i'll use a simple analogy of a romantic partner here. if someone is in love and devoted to you, would it not mean more that they have come to this conclusion of their own will rather than because you forced them to love you? there is no such thing as forcing someone to love you. that, quite frankly, is rape. i see faith in god the same way. he wants us to love him, but he cannot make us do anything we do not want to do. the obvious difference between that and a romantic lover is that there is romance involved in the later. love of god is a different type of love as defined by christians. a filial love in some sens,e but much deeper.



humor me into accepting free will, and this might be easier to understand. the doctrine goes that god created man and gave him free will, human nature (the pleasure principle) took over, and man has made a constant decision throughout humanity to indulge that instead of self-sacrifice for god. suffering is believed to be a byproduct of this. you've likely heard it said when you were a kid in school that "because one person won't be quiet, the entire class will get more homework". this, very simply put, is how i see suffering and sin. we are all paying the price for our sins, like it or not. shitty deal, i know. life's not fair.



yes. such a hard thing to grasp. i completely understand how cold-hearted it appears that god allows this sort of thing to happen. i have no honest answer here but to say, "life is not fair". such a shame.

of course i have. and i have issues with it:

first, do you believe god created humans in their present form? i think most christians say yes, some accept evolution. the next question would be, if actually you believe he created them, when? and if god created humans, why did he create them so imperfectly in the first place? consider pelvic floor dysfunction.

second, why did the omnipotent, omniscient god give humans free will if he knew -- remember, he knows all -- that we'd betray him? so god created human beings knowing they'd betray him and knowing he'd later introduce mass amounts of suffering. makes sense. cool god.

and you're telling me once humans decided to use their free will was when death and disease showed up? humans have never lived forever, right? so, when did the original sin occur? as soon as we appeared? god didn't give us much time before fucking us over, huh? i thought it was widely accepted adam and eve isn't a true story. if it relates to, say, thousands of years ago, well, what about humans before then? shouldn't they have been death and disease free?

i have to ask: were animals other than humans meant to die and/or meant to have disease?

I, of course, don't have answers to all these questions.

Because they all boil down to one thing..."Why does god behave in such and such way?"

There is no way that I will ever be able to answer that question unless God comes to my house and tells me. I'm pretty sure he's not going to.

You are trying to use your human logic, which is very sensible, to understand the will of something so much bigger. Our experience and knowledge is obviously limited. I wish i could have all the answers to the questions you've asked. But i don't think my human mind is capable of understanding that which created me, much less his will. I'm definitely not proud enough to say "God is an asshole because i don't understand his logic."

so god created terrible things to show people that pleasure isn't endlessly open for all. however, not all suffering is a result of pleasure.

you also say we're suffering for the sins of everyone. then i suppose very good, decent christians getting these terrible things despite not chasing pleasure are signs to christians that what, they should convert everyone to christianity? clearly we know christianity is not the best moral guide.

perhaps we just need to stop chasing pleasure so much, even if we are non-believers. but would a reduction in these types of actions really at this point reduce suffering on the whole?



it doesn't make sense to me that a supreme being would alleviate suffering for some people, yet put, in this instance, an innocent little christian girl through the worst experience one could possibly fathom going through. raped and bured alive. is he overburdened with problems up there? is he only concerned with certain issues? or, perhaps, is god just not involved in earthly affairs whatsoever?

You're going to drive yourself crazy, dude.

You are never going to get inside God's head.

There comes a point when you just have to accept that things are the way they are. Whether you believe in God or not, you're still just going to have to come to that conclusion. I guess you just have to decide which is easier: Believing we live in an imperfect world created by accident or Believing we live in an imperfect world created by something with a will.

maybe God is juggling several hundred planets trying to get it right....even God can't be everywhere at once....errr yeah...

that i know

nothing happens when you die

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i don't quite follow


nobody is talking about conversion here. yes, i am saying that we are suffering for the sins of everyone. make no mistake about it, i am saying that we are meant to suffer. from that viewpoint, reducing suffering is another way of seperating ourselves from god's will. gimmesomeskin said it better than i can, but it is impossible to understand god's will. why even try.


again, from the christian viewpoint, no. reducing suffering is not the point. the point is understanding that suffering is a reality on earth, and is a way to come to believe that this life on earth is not and end but the means to union with god.



no, it doesn't make sense. have you ever read the problem of pain by c.s. lewis? he addresses this much better than i ever could. i completely understand anger with god in this respect, i have struggled with it myself. the only thing i can really say is that i don't believe this life is all there is. that doesn't necessarily mean i think that heaven is an actual place up in the sky, but more like a union of souls celebrating what catholic's call "the eucharist". if you could feel what i feel during a mass at the part with the eucharist, it might be easier to understand how i could possibly think that jessica lunsford did not experience "the worst experience one could go through".

I like these threads but I hardly participate because I really don't know the point...

C_B are you trying to get people to see that they are crazy (in your mind)? Or are you trying to see if *maybe* they could offer you perspective and change your views on god?

Seriously...what is your agenda in these threads? Is it for you, for the 'others', or a combination? Cause you aren't changing your mind. I'm not either. And I can bet you anyone who believes in God isn't going to alter their belief structure defending their beliefs...

That being said...this is classic:

what about while we live? i'm still holding out hope.

did you just imply we should not reduce suffering? i'm imagining i read that wrong, or you typed it wrong.



i have not, but will add it to my list. lewis is good.



i have felt similar, in many different venues. claimed spiritual experience, again, is not proof.



"Three days after he abducted her," and had already raped her several times, "Couey bound Lunsford's wrists together with speaker wire, placed her in a garbage bag, placed the bag containing her inside another garbage bag, and buried her alive in a shallow grave, where she suffocated."

so you think lunsford was calmed by god's presence while taking her last few minutes? or are you just saying her terrifying experience is nothing compared to the bliss she's currently experiencing?

this is the answer.

ok, and can i call bullshit? you really don't think there is even a remote possibility of this happening...

changing my views on my own non-belief in god? probably not, no.

offering perspective and changing my views on god as a whole? absolutely. in this case, especially the christian point of view.

it's kind of odd: you grow up in a christian family yet you're never allowed to debate the problems you may have with the faith because it's a taboo subject. so all you learn is inside you and you never get a chance to carry out discourse with the believers who raised you. the same even goes for the present.