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 Post subject: Why is an income tax worse than a sales tax?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:06 pm 
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This is an argument that comes from the right fairly often... The income tax is wrong, but sales tax is ok and should replace the income tax(Fair Tax).
Why is this so?
I don't see any difference, they're both taxes just the same. Sure, one takes earlier than the other, but they're both doing essentially doing the same thing.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is an income tax worse than a sales tax?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:14 pm 
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they're not the same, they're actually very different. income tax is progressive, while the sales tax is regressive.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is an income tax worse than a sales tax?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:21 pm 
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invention wrote:
they're not the same, they're actually very different. income tax is progressive, while the sales tax is regressive.


I completely agree, I meant to add that in, but I meant that from a "taxes are wrong" point of view, they really differ very little, and like you said, a sales tax is regressive, so why is it "better" than an income tax?

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 Post subject: Re: Why is an income tax worse than a sales tax?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 8:24 pm 
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It might be the difference in the character of what is taxed. Sales tax is for (or against) spending, while income tax is for (or against) earning. That's a pretty big difference. Then there may also be differences in how it is taxed, but I guess that's different in each country so I wouldn't know.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is an income tax worse than a sales tax?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:36 pm 
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I don't think sales tax is a direct tax. Don't like it? Buy it on amazon!

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 Post subject: Re: Why is an income tax worse than a sales tax?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 10:47 pm 
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invention wrote:
income tax is progressive, while the sales tax is regressive.

The income tax can be any of progressive, proportional, or regressive depending how your structure the brackets.

Anyhoo, an income tax isn't worse than a sales tax, at least the way it's set up now. However, the real whining from the right regards the estate tax, which I think is less worse than either the income or sales tax.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is an income tax worse than a sales tax?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:15 pm 
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Lew Rockwell wrote:

A Consumption Tax or an Income Tax?

by Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr.

[I was asked by a journalist about the issue of alternative means of taxation: income tax or consumption tax. Here is my answer.]

The tax shift is one of the great games of government. In the game, the government uses the prospect of lowering one tax in order to buy support for raising another. The proposal to move from an income tax to a consumption tax is a good example of the game.

The essential key to understanding the trick is to realize that the government wants money and is going to get it one way or another. Zig zagging from one method to another does not change the reality. But it can fool the gullible. And it can raise a lot of money from affected groups during the transition period.

One helpful way to understand this is to think of a robber who promises to stop coming through your front door if you promise to leave the back door open. So it is with the state that promises to stop taxing your income if you let it tax your consumption. The issue is not the method; it is the amount.

The case for the consumption over the income tax rests on these essential claims:

1. The consumption tax is at least voluntary. Actually, it is just as coercive as any tax. Under the income tax, if I earn income and don't pay the tax, I can be fined and jailed. Under the consumption tax, if I consume a taxed item and don't pay the tax, I get fined and jailed.

It's true that I can choose not to consume that item. Similarly under the income tax, I can choose not to earn income. Nothing is voluntary if I am not permitted to exempt myself. There is no such thing as a voluntary tax. If there were, it would be called something else.

2. The consumption tax doesn't tax production. Yes it does. Businesses don't set their own prices, which is why they cannot simply pass on the consumption tax to the consumer. If they could raise their prices without affecting their profits, they would have already done so. Imposing a new tax new on a business, all other things being equal, the business will have to absorb the cost of that consumer tax into its own operations. In this way, the consumption tax is a tax on production, wages, research, investment, and every other aspect of economic life.

3. The consumption tax is easier to collect. Assuming this to be true, why is this necessarily a good thing? A tax that is hard to collect suggests that it less tempting to raise. What's more, a consumption tax might be easy to collect at 1%. But to replace the federal tax with a national consumption tax would require a tax approaching 20%. This would throw markets into chaos, create an overnight black market in everything, and give a great excuse for massive despotism and mandatory record keeping.

4. The consumption tax doesn't tax savings. Generally this is true. But the government should not be in the business of prodding us into a particular pattern of saving and consumption. It should leave that up to us. Saving is great to the extent it reflects individual preferences. Consumption is great in the same way. But there is no way to know a priori what the right mix should be. And think of this: the degree to which the consumption tax discourages consumption is the same degree to which it does not raise revenue. How does the tax-hungry state deal with that paradox?

5. The consumption tax, whatever its problems, is at least not progressive. Far too much is made of the flat versus progressivity issue. Think of it this way. Would you rather pay a flat 40% tax, or finagle your way through a system with 20 different rates ranging from 1% to 39% (all else being equal)? If you knew that you would pay less under a progressive system, that is the one you would favor.

The champions of the consumption tax, particularly those who claim to support free markets, need to redirect their energies, away from the method of taxation to its level. They need to adopt the general principle that whatever the existing tax, it should be lower. Going back to the robber analogy, the ideal system would leave every door and window bolted down.

Let's not reform taxes. Let's eliminate them, starting with the income tax. That is not unrealistic. The income tax this year will yield $1 trillion for the federal government. Cutting that amount gives us a budget equal to the federal budget of 1987. Was the government intolerably small back then?

November 13, 2002

Llewellyn H. Rockwell, Jr. [send him mail] is president of the Ludwig von Mises Institute in Auburn, Alabama, and editor of LewRockwell.com. See the Mises Institute’s Frederick L. Maier Archive on Taxation.

Copyright © 2002 LewRockwell.com


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 Post subject: Re: Why is an income tax worse than a sales tax?
PostPosted: Sun Jul 20, 2008 11:54 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
invention wrote:
income tax is progressive, while the sales tax is regressive.

The income tax can be any of progressive, proportional, or regressive depending how your structure the brackets.

Anyhoo, an income tax isn't worse than a sales tax, at least the way it's set up now. However, the real whining from the right regards the estate tax, which I think is less worse than either the income or sales tax.


Yeah, I actually wouldn't be too opposed to a complete removal of income tax and sales tax at the cost of higher estate tax. The estate tax is the only one that doesn't take something from someone who earned it. Really I wouldn't be too opposed to something like a near-100% estate tax with a $1 million or so (adjusted for inflation) exemption for each child.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is an income tax worse than a sales tax?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:06 am 
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Sunny wrote:
I don't think sales tax is a direct tax. Don't like it? Buy it on amazon!


unless you live in new york

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 Post subject: Re: Why is an income tax worse than a sales tax?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:10 am 
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Sunny wrote:
I don't think sales tax is a direct tax. Don't like it? Buy it on amazon!


that's only because sales taxes are state taxes and not federal ones as it is.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is an income tax worse than a sales tax?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 12:12 am 
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$úñ_DëV|L wrote:
Green Habit wrote:
invention wrote:
income tax is progressive, while the sales tax is regressive.

The income tax can be any of progressive, proportional, or regressive depending how your structure the brackets.

Anyhoo, an income tax isn't worse than a sales tax, at least the way it's set up now. However, the real whining from the right regards the estate tax, which I think is less worse than either the income or sales tax.


Yeah, I actually wouldn't be too opposed to a complete removal of income tax and sales tax at the cost of higher estate tax. The estate tax is the only one that doesn't take something from someone who earned it. Really I wouldn't be too opposed to something like a near-100% estate tax with a $1 million or so (adjusted for inflation) exemption for each child.

Yeah, I've thought about that exact same thing for the estate tax as well, though I'm not sure if it could generate enough money without an income/sales tax. I think you also have to have two different floors for money from individuals versus, say, ownership in a business--the latter needing to have a higher floor.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is an income tax worse than a sales tax?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:20 am 
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Green Habit wrote:
$úñ_DëV|L wrote:
Green Habit wrote:
invention wrote:
income tax is progressive, while the sales tax is regressive.

The income tax can be any of progressive, proportional, or regressive depending how your structure the brackets.

Anyhoo, an income tax isn't worse than a sales tax, at least the way it's set up now. However, the real whining from the right regards the estate tax, which I think is less worse than either the income or sales tax.


Yeah, I actually wouldn't be too opposed to a complete removal of income tax and sales tax at the cost of higher estate tax. The estate tax is the only one that doesn't take something from someone who earned it. Really I wouldn't be too opposed to something like a near-100% estate tax with a $1 million or so (adjusted for inflation) exemption for each child.

Yeah, I've thought about that exact same thing for the estate tax as well, though I'm not sure if it could generate enough money without an income/sales tax. I think you also have to have two different floors for money from individuals versus, say, ownership in a business--the latter needing to have a higher floor.


I would hope that only liquid assets would be taxed at that rate. It seems counter productive to tax a small business to oblivion because the previous owner passed away.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is an income tax worse than a sales tax?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 3:51 am 
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I can think of 2 reasons for this:

1. Rich people pay a MUCH higher income tax than poor people. If they do away with income tax, everyone pays the same

2. Illegal immigrants will be forced to pay their tax

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 Post subject: Re: Why is an income tax worse than a sales tax?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 10:02 am 
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JimNasium wrote:
I can think of 2 reasons for this:

1. Rich people pay a MUCH higher income tax than poor people. If they do away with income tax, everyone pays the same

2. Illegal immigrants will be forced to pay their tax

but rich people SHOULD pay a much higher income tax.
why? because they still are left with much more than the poor people, even after those taxes.
I wish I was in the higher income tax bracket..that'd mean I MAKE much more money, and have much more money left AFTER the tax!

that's why sales tax is bad, it takes a MUCH greater share of revenue from the poorest people.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is an income tax worse than a sales tax?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 1:56 pm 
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JimNasium wrote:
2. Illegal immigrants will be forced to pay their tax

Actually, nearly all illegal immigrants already pay taxes, just like anyone else.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is an income tax worse than a sales tax?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:02 pm 
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Pegasus wrote:
JimNasium wrote:
I can think of 2 reasons for this:

1. Rich people pay a MUCH higher income tax than poor people. If they do away with income tax, everyone pays the same

2. Illegal immigrants will be forced to pay their tax

but rich people SHOULD pay a much higher income tax.
why? because they still are left with much more than the poor people, even after those taxes.
I wish I was in the higher income tax bracket..that'd mean I MAKE much more money, and have much more money left AFTER the tax!

that's why sales tax is bad, it takes a MUCH greater share of revenue from the poorest people.


I would agree with that if you were speaking in terms of actual dollar amount, but do you really think it's fair that someone who makes xxx amount of money should be taxed at a rate of 39% and someone who makes less gets taxed at 28% -- just because the first one can actually afford it? Should you have to pay more for consumer goods if you make more than your neighbor?

I think if there needs to be an income tax, it should be a flat rate regardless of income. That should close most loopholes that the uber-rich people find, and hold everyone accountable for their fair percentage. If the government can't make enough that way, then maybe they need to cut some spending. Stop going to war, stop corporate welfare, stop going after Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds..... there's room for cuts. Consumption fuels the economy, we should leave it alone.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is an income tax worse than a sales tax?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:06 pm 
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Sandler wrote:
Pegasus wrote:
JimNasium wrote:
I can think of 2 reasons for this:

1. Rich people pay a MUCH higher income tax than poor people. If they do away with income tax, everyone pays the same

2. Illegal immigrants will be forced to pay their tax

but rich people SHOULD pay a much higher income tax.
why? because they still are left with much more than the poor people, even after those taxes.
I wish I was in the higher income tax bracket..that'd mean I MAKE much more money, and have much more money left AFTER the tax!

that's why sales tax is bad, it takes a MUCH greater share of revenue from the poorest people.


I would agree with that if you were speaking in terms of actual dollar amount, but do you really think it's fair that someone who makes xxx amount of money should be taxed at a rate of 39% and someone who makes less gets taxed at 28% -- just because the first one can actually afford it? Should you have to pay more for consumer goods if you make more than your neighbor?

I think if there needs to be an income tax, it should be a flat rate regardless of income. That should close most loopholes that the uber-rich people find, and hold everyone accountable for their fair percentage. If the government can't make enough that way, then maybe they need to cut some spending. Stop going to war, stop corporate welfare, stop going after Roger Clemens and Barry Bonds..... there's room for cuts. Consumption fuels the economy, we should leave it alone.

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 Post subject: Re: Why is an income tax worse than a sales tax?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:17 pm 
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Sandler wrote:
I would agree with that if you were speaking in terms of actual dollar amount, but do you really think it's fair that someone who makes xxx amount of money should be taxed at a rate of 39% and someone who makes less gets taxed at 28% -- just because the first one can actually afford it? Should you have to pay more for consumer goods if you make more than your neighbor?


I agree with that. Isn't it currently flipped? Doesn't your average millionaire pay a lower percentage of their income to the IRS than the average middle-class family?

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 Post subject: Re: Why is an income tax worse than a sales tax?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:21 pm 
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B wrote:
Sandler wrote:
I would agree with that if you were speaking in terms of actual dollar amount, but do you really think it's fair that someone who makes xxx amount of money should be taxed at a rate of 39% and someone who makes less gets taxed at 28% -- just because the first one can actually afford it? Should you have to pay more for consumer goods if you make more than your neighbor?


I agree with that. Isn't it currently flipped? Doesn't your average millionaire pay a lower percentage of their income to the IRS than the average middle-class family?

Negative.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax ... _tax_rates

Of course, this doesn't account for the payroll tax, which I also don't like.


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 Post subject: Re: Why is an income tax worse than a sales tax?
PostPosted: Mon Jul 21, 2008 2:34 pm 
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Green Habit wrote:
B wrote:
Sandler wrote:
I would agree with that if you were speaking in terms of actual dollar amount, but do you really think it's fair that someone who makes xxx amount of money should be taxed at a rate of 39% and someone who makes less gets taxed at 28% -- just because the first one can actually afford it? Should you have to pay more for consumer goods if you make more than your neighbor?


I agree with that. Isn't it currently flipped? Doesn't your average millionaire pay a lower percentage of their income to the IRS than the average middle-class family?

Negative.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_tax ... _tax_rates

Of course, this doesn't account for the payroll tax, which I also don't like.


Yeah, I think the (wrong) idea being payroll tax is that the business and its owner(s) are the ones who pay for it. I think when you consider payroll taxes, the effective tax rate for even a middle-class person is probably well over 40% (12.2% FICO, 2.9% Medicare, 25-28% Income Tax, State Taxes, County and Municipal Property Taxes, Sales Taxes, et al).

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